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Roger Waters Time Redux
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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

How about this: He’a great at what he does, and you have disqualified yourself from the discussion.

Greatness is subjective. Greatness is also subject to time. Athletes, and most musicians, are only truly "great" for a specified time - an era. Roger Waters blew his wad on The Wall, and has never even remotely reached that height since. Objectively, any sort of "greatness" predates The Wall, back to truly splendid and important albums like Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here, but for all intents and purposes The Wall was the last album of note Roger Waters ever did. 

The vast group of listeners who bought and still buy Pink Floyd albums really couldn't care less about Waters' solo career. People still buy Pink Floyd t-shirts and paraphernalia, some of whom (like my daughter) have only a passing knowledge of Floyd's catalog, but they have t-shirts. No one buys Roger Waters for Roger Waters' solo output. And that obviously eats at him.

And so, almost tragically, Waters repeats The Wall tours over and over for decades, which is indicative of an aging man trying to repeat past glory. This sad Dark Side of the Moon remake is just another take of a disgruntled old man reliving the time when he was captain of the high school football team. When he was important. Perhaps even when he was considered "great".
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Points: 21185 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2023 at 13:05
^ I don't agree. I really like The Final Cut, and I think it's better than anything PF ever did after RW left. I don't particularly like the RW solo albums though, and I doubt that I would enjoy the opera he released many years ago.

But I really like The Wall, and I resonate with the message. He's not touring The Wall, even though it is a cornerstone of his shows he adds PF songs and favorites from his solo albums. This mix is quite good and the message is really relevant today. And many agree with me :-) 
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And here's something from The Final Cut ...
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I don't agree. I really like The Final Cut, and I think it's better than anything PF ever did after RW left. 

I will say that "The Final Cut" as an album title is perhaps the most appropriate name for a recording ever released. And thanks, we want no more of that. I would think the consensus consider The Wall as the last real Pink Floyd album including Roger Waters and Richard Wright. The Final Cut is a Roger Waters solo album made only bearable by David Gilmour's occasional appearances on selected songs. 
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Points: 21185 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2023 at 15:33
^ Let me guess: You alone decide who will be on the consensus committee? Wink

The Final Cut is a polarizing album. If you like Roger Waters, you'll tend to like the album. If you hate him, you won't - obviously. If you take a look at TFC and Momentary Lapse of Reason, which is the first album without RW and really dominated by Gilmour, you'll see that on many platforms (I checked PA, RYM and my own website of course, AwesomeProg) The Final Cut wins. On my website it wins more clearly, since I am not computing average ratings from all the individual ratings anymore, but the typical rating based on medians.

TLDR: A Momentary Lapse of Reason is a good, but not great album - most of its ratings are in that range. The Final Cut on the other hand is rated highly by many, but very low by others. You either think it's awesome, or it sucks. The resulting average is similar to AMLOR, but if you go with what MOST raters think, TFC beats AMLOR hands down.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I don't agree. I really like The Final Cut, and I think it's better than anything PF ever did after RW left. 

I will say that "The Final Cut" as an album title is perhaps the most appropriate name for a recording ever released. And thanks, we want no more of that. I would think the consensus consider The Wall as the last real Pink Floyd album including Roger Waters and Richard Wright. The Final Cut is a Roger Waters solo album made only bearable by David Gilmour's occasional appearances on selected songs. 


Mason played a bit in TFC, but he was more interested in racing his ancestor cars. TFC is definitely more of a Floyd album than AMLOR will ever be, since it was originally Gilmour third studio album that was redirected in emergency into a Floyd album in order to claim the name. Mason hardly played anything (not really capable of drumming at that point) and Wright just put in a few notes in order to make it "legitimate", but didn't even appear on the picture. TDB has more credibilty, but if you take the instrumental Shine On You ripoff Clster One and the High Hopes, it's a weak album as well. Let's not even talk of solo Gilmour albums.

Indeed, TFC is the last credible Floyd, album as the Gilmour Floyd became almost a tribute band to itself releasing two full albums (their weakest ones) in 39 years. Amused to Death and Is This The Life are good albums with great lyrics (something Gilmour or Wright could never do)

Truly, Waters needed the other three as much as the other three needed him.

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^ Actually, as fas as consensus, go back over the two entire threads regarding Roger Waters' newest debacle. Not only is there a consensus on these boards, you look to be the only one of maybe two posters who actually likes it. I won't count Mosh because he is incapable of actually typing a coherent statement. 

Oh, and I prefer The Division Bell to both, and it seems RYM concurs.
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Points: 21185 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2023 at 00:55
^ I'm not sure if or how much I like it yet. And you've just moved the goal post, going from TFC to DSOTM Redux. 

Yes, going by consensus we can conclude that people prefer TDB over TFC. Then again, history confirms that "consensus" is not always right. Which brings us to politics, and the true reason why many people in the West have a beef with RW, which has nothing to do with music. Regardless of where you stand on the topic (and let's not discuss details in this forum), you'd surely agree that this can skew the consensus.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

^ Actually, as fas as consensus, go back over the two entire threads regarding Roger Waters' newest debacle. Not only is there a consensus on these boards, you look to be the only one of maybe two posters who actually likes it. I won't count Mosh because he is incapable of actually typing a coherent statement.


I wouldn't call the Redux thing a debacle - though it was a very risky thing to touch such an iconic album, but only a true artiste would take such a risk

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I'm not sure if or how much I like it yet. And you've just moved the goal post, going from TFC to DSOTM Redux.


To be fair, Dark Elf moved back the goalposts to the original Redux spot.Smile
Most likely, I won't bother much with the Redux thing. Just the name is a problem: I don't know of "Redux" came about to be in this release campaign, but it probably comes from "reduction", which is not positive.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Yes, going by consensus we can conclude that people prefer TDB over TFC. Then again, history confirms that "consensus" is not always right. Which brings us to politics, and the true reason why many people in the West have a beef with RW, which has nothing to do with music. Regardless of where you stand on the topic (and let's not discuss details in this forum), you'd surely agree that this can skew the consensus.


Yes of course, it would be crazy to assert that TDB is less popuklar than TFC, if only because of High Hopes still getting major airplay nowadays. That track is really Gilmour's best since Confortably Numb, which originally had been left off his solo debut in 77 - just like Run Like Hell was a Gilmour leftover from Animals, BTW. I think only Young Lust was the only Gilmour song that was written in the frame of The Wall.

I do agree that Waters' many politics outcry outrages a wide western public opinion (the Ukraine part anyways - I don't his Anti-Trump antics gets him much annoyance - though his Pro-Communist makes him suspicious towards the masses), and somehow it blurrs the lines and splashes onto his music.

===============

BTW, I don't hate AMLOR as a Gilmour solo album (actually, IMHO, it would rank as his second best after the debut), despite its 80's sonic flaws (Roger did Radio KAOS with the same flaws); but it sucks as a Pink Floyd album.

Likewise, if TDB is definitely more legit (as "legal") as a Floyd album, we could view it as a Gilmour-Wright solo collab, because, outside HH, in terms of Lyrics, we are far from the Floyd 72-83 mould.
AMLOR was more like a "coup d'état" from Gimour.


.
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
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prefer lifting our pen
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I'm not sure if or how much I like it yet. And you've just moved the goal post, going from TFC to DSOTM Redux. 

Yes, going by consensus we can conclude that people prefer TDB over TFC. Then again, history confirms that "consensus" is not always right. Which brings us to politics, and the true reason why many people in the West have a beef with RW, which has nothing to do with music. Regardless of where you stand on the topic (and let's not discuss details in this forum), you'd surely agree that this can skew the consensus.

Why do people always bring up Roger's politics in these discussions? It is possible to just not like the music. This is the second discussion I've been involved in where this has been posited. Last time I saw Roger live the place was packed in an arena, he wasn't struggling to fill the place.

I repeat, I... just... don't... like... these... versions.


Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


BTW, I don't hate AMLOR as a Gilmour solo album (actually, IMHO, it would rank as his second best after the debut), despite its 80's sonic flaws (Roger did Radio KAOS with the same flaws); but it sucks as a Pink Floyd album.

Likewise, if TDB is definitely more legit (as "legal") as a Floyd album, we could view it as a Gilmour-Wright solo collab, because, outside HH, in terms of Lyrics, we are far from the Floyd 72-83 mould.
AMLOR was more like a "coup d'état" from Gimour.

.

I tend to agree with you that AMLOR is one of Gilmours best solo albums. second behind the debut. It certainly sits in my bottom 5. Everything post The Wall is actually in my bottom 5.
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^ Relax, I believe you! I don't like them either, compared to how much I like the original. 
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I personally like it. Nice touches have been added and is quite pleasent to hear it.
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Relax, I believe you! I don't like them either, compared to how much I like the original. 

Must not post until after second cup of coffee, or after driving into work through Boston traffic. Tongue
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Personally, I like it too. Of course, the original of 1973 is great! But that's changing.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think it is a tragic last gasp of a bitter old man trying desperately to rewrite his own history. Make no mistake, there is nothing "progressive" about this remake, and let's be honest, remakes are inherently diametrically opposed to any hint of progressiveness. Waters' failed attempt at continued relevance has proven how irrelevant he has become. 



Let me put it this way: With his touring and political activism he is much more relevant than David Gilmour, even if you don’t agree with any of his activities. 

I wasn't aware being a tw*t somehow translates to "political activism". David Gilmour? He is evidently far more comfortable being himself and aging gracefully -- he obviously has nothing to prove to anyone or himself. 

As for his activism, Gilmour auctioned off his entire guitar collection and donated the proceeds to charity ($21.5 million) just a few years ago, and in 2022 he reformed Pink Floyd to release "Hey Hey Rise Up' For support of the Ukraine. The single raised more than $600,000 for humanitarian aid. 

He's also not trying to rewrite Echoes or Wish You Were Here as death marches. He seems very happy being with family. You know, being a loving human, not a miserable old git. Here's a link to his charities...

https://www.davidgilmour.com/charity.htm
...word........At the end of the day, when both of these fine musicians leave this earth, I for one will miss David Gilmour the most. When you look at what both have done in the past 10-15yrs the catalog of creative music fully lies with Gilmour. What Roger has created pales in comparison and is 100% geared towards creating political divides, which has zero to do with creating music.
The question is who has glowed more in the last chapter of their life as a musician and how will they be remembered?
So sad to be Roger Waters.....and I am sure he will care soon enough.
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What would be your favorite DG recording of the last 10-15 years?
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Bland, boring. And again he could not keep his mouth shut and had to blabber his amazing ideas about society and what not. But the most telling of the motive of the redux is the not so small detail of not including a guitar solo, ergo, erasing any credit to Gilmour, pitiful to the max. 
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

What would be your favorite DG recording of the last 10-15 years?
The last 2 studio albums are very good...As well the last couple live recordings are fantastic. RW last tours are very good (production wise) although completely littered with political bantering, pretty much every song had some kind of RW message. Basically heed my messages or get the f*ck out!
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

What would be your favorite DG recording of the last 10-15 years?

Metallic Spheres with The Orb.
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^ Yeah, I thought of that one. A nice album, but more Orb than Gilmour. I'll listen to it again tomorrow. I really doubt it will beat Waters' lockdown recordings, although to be fair, those are not new original songs. But neither is Metallic spheres, that is essentially long tracks of grooves and improvisations. 
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