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The first suite |
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jamesbaldwin 
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 Topic: The first suitePosted: April 09 2023 at 10:35 |
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Is In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida the first suite in rock history? It was recorded on 27 May 1968. By the word suite I mean those pieces of music that occupy one side of an LP.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Cristi
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 10:42 |
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Could be, I thought it was Procol Harum's In Held 'Twas in I, but that one came a few months afterwards.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 11:05 |
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I would say maybe more like In Held Twas In I. I always thought of In- a- Gadda- Da- Vida more like just a really long song (album side).
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 09 2023 at 11:05 |
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JD
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 11:20 |
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Not sure I'd call it a suite. Noodle, Jam, Psych sure. But let's look at what a suite is: a) an instrumental composition consisting of several movements in the same key based on or derived from dance rhythms, esp in the baroque period
b) an instrumental composition in several movements less closely connected than a sonata
c) a piece of music containing movements based on or extracted from music already used in an opera, ballet, play, etc So I'd offer up the following as being more appropriate. November 1968 The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (18:20) - a) Prelude - b) 1st Movement: Awakenings - c) 2nd Movement: Realisation - d) 3rd Movement: Acceptance "Brandenburger" - e) 4th Movement: Denial - f) Coda - Extension To The Big Note EDIT But yes , as I just saw Procol Harem's release was in September 1968 in US, BUT Dec. In UK.
Edited by JD - April 09 2023 at 11:23 |
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 11:27 |
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Grumpyprogfan
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 11:36 |
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Zappa, Lumpy Gravy, August 1967.
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 12:19 |
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I think it is difficult to give a definition of a suite. Many criteria are subjective. We should analyse the musical score to undertand if there are true movements. For example, Close to the edge is considered a suite, it is divided into several movements, but to me it sounds like a verse-chorus song. That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 12:20 |
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Oh, yes, 1967. Shall we try to put the suites in order until the end of 1969?
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 13:21 |
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You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and
it has an actual, specific meaning.
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 14:31 |
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So Close to the Edge is not a suite, right?
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Stressed Cheese
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 16:04 |
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I think you're talking about something usually just referred to as a 'side-long song' or something. But the earliest one I can think of is Zappa's Return of the Son of Monster Magnet from 1966. Close To The Edge is a side-long song, but I don't think it'd be considered a suite, even though the song itself has different named sections.
When talking about suites as in a string of songs that go together, it's another Zappa example that comes to mind for me as the earliest: the second side of Absolutely Free, The MOI American Pageant. Even though it's not a single "song" like the Procul example is, it does all go together without breaks and feels a bit incomplete when listening to most parts (except maybe Brown Shoes Don't Make It) on their own.
Edited by Stressed Cheese - April 09 2023 at 16:05 |
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I prophesy disaster
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 16:27 |
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This track is called "Elegant Gypsy Suite": |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Snicolette
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 16:33 |
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What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Psychedelic Paul
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 16:50 |
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I'm In the Garden of Eden whenever I hear this song, but I've never thought of it as a suite, even though it occupies the whole side of an album. To me, a suite is a series of distinct (and often named) musical movements making up part of a greater whole, such as Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells or Supper's Ready by Genesis, and if I'm wrong about that, then you can knock me down with an
Iron Butterfly.
 Edited by Psychedelic Paul - April 09 2023 at 16:51 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 18:05 |
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In my opinion, it is not a suite. It is divided into many songs that have a beginning and an end. As is always, you just have to agree on the initial definition. I tried to give a definition of a suite that coincides with side long song. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Manuel
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Posted: April 09 2023 at 22:32 |
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Yes, Zappa makes the cut, at least in my book.
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Psychedelic Paul
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Posted: April 10 2023 at 00:19 |
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Great suggestion! Days of Future Passed is listed as "a suite of songs" on Wikipedia.
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: April 10 2023 at 00:42 |
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It's a multipart song divided into I. The Solid Time Of Change, II: Total Mass Retain, III. I Get Up, I Get Down and IV: Seasons Of Man. And conciously spliced together while taking insipration from composers such as Sibelius and how he composed symphonies using different sounding "movements". So Close to the Edge is much closer to the meaning of a what a suite means than In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - which is pretty much an extended jam. Whether a song is sidelong or not is obviously beside the point. Seriously don't you see how silly that looks? I can't believe I'm discussing this. Supper's Ready isn't sidelong btw and I guess that automatically disqualifies it from all suite-related discussions - unlike Iron Butterfly's overlong little ditty.
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: April 10 2023 at 01:44 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: April 10 2023 at 04:28 |
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Well, you are a true democrat: if anyone doesn't think the way you do, he writes things that sound like silly. Fantastic! A kind of manifesto of intolerance. This thread is not about what a suite is. Although it is an interesting and very complex topic. We can talk about it for months. I agree that In A Gadda... is more a blues-rock jam than a suite. And that Close to the Edge is closer to a suite - but it's a verse/chorus song that lasts a long time. Palepoli's Animal senza respiro is much more a suite than Close to the Edge but it is not divided into movements. And then there would be the Rush songs, which sound like suites but aren't, they're pieces of songs, with a beginning and an end, but amalgamated as movements of a suite. The difference with Days of Future Passed is only in calling the songs movements of a suite. If we consider even the "suite of songs", then we risk calling every rock opera or concept album a suite. Precisely to avoid these quibbles, which make the concept of a suite indefinable without ending in a series of gradations, I wanted to give a tranchant definition of suite. In this way, we avoid all this subjective talk that would lead us into a nominalistic discussion. Example of shades of suite: Less suite: In A Gadda < Days of future passed < The fountain of Lamenth <Close to the Edge < Animale senza respiro < Supper's ready < Thick as a brick : More suite Then we should also talk about mini-suites, short suites: is Launghin' Tackle by Quatermass a suite? We wouldn't get away with it. Why did Thick as Brick make history far more than Days of Future Passed? Because the whole album is a suite, but a real suite, where the musical flow never stops, from the beginning to the end of the side, we have two side-long songs. So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin wrote: