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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?

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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2022 at 14:18
My previous post turned out way too long (sorry).

I love lots of retro music, including kinds of retro prog. Many of my favourites from the 90s up incorporate classic psychedelia, classic electronica, classic Krautrock, classic "space-age" music, classic lounge, and classic exotica, as well as classic soundtrack music. Kosmischer Laufer is one of my favourite projects of the past decade (included in PA), and that is music that actually pretends to be from the 70s and 80s, with elaborate backstory and all. Klaus Morlock is another such artist that I am very keen on.

So definitely I enjoy that, but I rather feel that if we don't allow more modalities and styles into the Prog universe, then most everything modern that we bring into PA will end up just trying to sound like past acts, and not only is that not progressive, but I think it would be not that interesting in terms of being so limiting. I would hope that the Prog made today could be approaching as innovative and adventurous as that which was made in the classic era.

Edited by Logan - May 14 2022 at 14:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2022 at 14:30
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Today, I'm much more concerned with that the understandig of what Prog is can be so including that Progressive Rock becomes difficult to distinguish from mainstream Rock - and that would be a pity for us, Prog lovers. Confused"

Out of curiosity, and just because I don't understand it, but can you explain how a genre label influences your music appreciation?

If something was a very important part of your life for 50 years, and it had a speciel name which you were used to for many years, then you would understand the connection.

That's the best way I can explain it, and actually, I don't really distinguish between the music and the name of it when I think of Progressive Rock.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2022 at 14:56
Thanks Logan! I appreciate it.   

I always enjoy reading your posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2022 at 16:38
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

My previous post turned out way too long (sorry).

I just haven't been ready to deal with it yet, as quite a lot happened the last days. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2022 at 18:09
“I would hope that the Prog made today could be approaching as innovative and adventurous as that which was made in the classic era.”

The 60s, 70s and 80s were so innovative, and I think some people just expected it to go in a different direction after that. If your ears aren’t enjoying the experience of listening to a particular newfangled sound, then why listen to it? If you’d rather listen to your neighbor cut tile than a new sound, then I think it is perfectly acceptable to clamber over the rocks back to your generation’s genre cave and explore unwritten songs. I find some of the retro Prog songwriting to be more original than certain new music in terms of instrumentation, tonality, riffs, chord progression, etc. Each to their own. (Someone is probably running off and recording someone cutting tile right now and setting it to a 7/8 time signature. Home Industrial Prog Genre). If you have ever seen Jon Lovitz’s “It’s a Picasso” act, you’ll know what I’m getting at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 02:41
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Today, I'm much more concerned with that the understandig of what Prog is can be so including that Progressive Rock becomes difficult to distinguish from mainstream Rock - and that would be a pity for us, Prog lovers. Confused"

Out of curiosity, and just because I don't understand it, but can you explain how a genre label influences your music appreciation?

If something was a very important part of your life for 50 years, and it had a speciel name which you were used to for many years, then you would understand the connection.

That's the best way I can explain it, and actually, I don't really distinguish between the music and the name of it when I think of Progressive Rock.


Thank you for confirming what I thought. It explains why you are so insistent on definitions. I find this quite surprising and it is definitely not my way of approaching and appreciating music.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 08:13

Thank you very much, Greg, for your two last posts, which I find very interesting and informative about your definition of Prog
and "progressive rock", and your musical preferences.
Edit:
I can say that one of the the good things of my quoting here of your previous definition from the other thread is that 
it has led to my better understanding of your definitions, and that may become the case for other people as well. Smile



Edited by David_D - May 15 2022 at 13:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 16:57
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Thank you for confirming what I thought. It explains why you are so insistent on definitions. I find this quite surprising and it is definitely not my way of approaching and appreciating music.

While I'm not quite sure, you've understood my point, or maybe have made a wrong conclusion, because my appreciating of various kind of music has not much to do with how I think of Prog definitions, and I doubt that it's lesser than yours.

If you're irritated by my obsession of Prog definitions, you could try to ask me about it, and I could look at the possibility for telling you about it - but I guess it's rather personal while the relation between us hasn't been very good.


Edited by David_D - May 15 2022 at 17:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2022 at 22:39
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Today, I'm much more concerned with that the understandig of what Prog is can be so including that Progressive Rock becomes difficult to distinguish from mainstream Rock - and that would be a pity for us, Prog lovers. Confused"
Out of curiosity, and just because I don't understand it, but can you explain how a genre label influences your music appreciation?

I can say as well that the Progressive Rock label increases my appreciation of the kind of music I think of as Progressive Rock. I can even say that I'm in love with that kind of music, and that's why I call myself "Prog lover". I'm very proud of being it, too.


Edited by David_D - May 15 2022 at 22:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 01:37
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Thank you for confirming what I thought. It explains why you are so insistent on definitions. I find this quite surprising and it is definitely not my way of approaching and appreciating music.
One thing more, suitkees. I've noticed that your own appreciation of music is certainly not without influence of definitions, as you have written in this thread:
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

.. I mean that the "progressiveness" of the music is not a defining characteristic anymore, at least not necessarily when some of us talk about "prog". Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

I think even that while in your case, the influence seems to me to be negative, it's mostly or maybe even very positive in my case. Wink


Edited by David_D - May 16 2022 at 02:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 01:51
There is nothing in what you’ve quoted from Kees there that shows any influence of definition upon his appreciation. You do seem to understand things very differently from most people, and I think you infer from what they write your own understanding. There is nothing wrong with understanding things differently, but it is important to recognise that not everyone will think the way you do, so to frame their words by your own reference will often result in something quite different from what was actually said.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 05:20

^ Exactly!

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Thank you for confirming what I thought. It explains why you are so insistent on definitions. I find this quite surprising and it is definitely not my way of approaching and appreciating music.

While I'm not quite sure, you've understood my point, or maybe have made a wrong conclusion, because my appreciating of various kind of music has not much to do with how I think of Prog definitions, and I doubt that it's lesser than yours.

Well, I wasn't sure to understand your "point" at first, that's why I asked you the question. By now, you've confirmed three times that what I was thinking was correct, so apparently I did understand your point...

Quote If you're irritated by my obsession of Prog definitions, you could try to ask me about it, and I could look at the possibility for telling you about it - but I guess it's rather personal while the relation between us hasn't been very good.
Don't worry, I'm not irritated by your obsession for prog definitions, I just don't share this obsession with you.

What actually does irritate me is your regular inappropriate way of quoting people, which is the case here:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

One thing more, suitkees. I've noticed that your own appreciation of music is certainly not without influence of definitions, as you have written in this thread:
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:


.. I mean that the "progressiveness" of the music is not a defining characteristic anymore, at least not necessarily when some of us talk about "prog". Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

You deliberately left out the line just after the quote:
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

In that sense, trying to define "progressive rock" or "prog rock" is indeed an endless and probably senseless discussion. Fortunately, at least for me, the labels we could stick on music don't influence on my appreciation of that music.
And when it doesn't influence, this can neither be positive nor negative...




Edited by suitkees - May 16 2022 at 05:22

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 07:11
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Well, suitkees, all I can do is repeat what I've written before because as I see it, you have a certain understanding/definition of "progressive rock", and that has a negative influence of you appreciation of music
You can repeat what you want, it doesn't make your misinterpretations and misunderstandings more correct. It may be inconceivable to you that definitions don't influence my way of appreciating music, but that's how it is for me.

However...
Quote And if you're not aware of that, it's a lack in your understanding of your approach to music.

LOL
...indeed, I wasn't aware of that and I must incline to your superior knowledge of my understanding of my own approach to and my own appreciation of music. You must be a superior intelligent Highness who knows me so well!


EDIT: Oh, good heavens... You're so almighty that you deleted your superior intelligent message. Now mine is wandering in the emptiness of my ignorance... and on this forum...


Edited by suitkees - May 16 2022 at 07:15

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 07:15

Well, suitkees, as I see it, what I have quoted of you shows that you have a certain understanding/definition of "progressive rock"
which has a negative influence on your appreciation of music.
And if you're not aware of that, it's a lack in your understanding of your approach to music.





Edited by David_D - May 16 2022 at 07:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 07:44
Something of an aside, perhaps, because I have not understood your argument, David (haven't given it much thought either and only briefly skimmed the posts), but...

That I can think of now, where a label could effect my enjoyment would be because it influenced my expectations. This has happened and had more to do with problematic labeling where I came in expecting something different and had I come in with different expectations , then I might have appreciated it much for what is, than be disappointed about what it is not. If I already like something, then seeing how it is labeled by others should not affect my enjoyment. I love very diverse music anyway.

I have come to enjoy quite a lot of music because it ended up being deemed Prog at PA (or at least it was added to our categories) and that led to me discovering the music.

Labeling art I seem to find best for the utility when it comes to finding things that are likely to interest me. Of course labels are very useful -- such as on one's medication and other things.

And thanks Jaketejas, I enjoy reading your posts and found those in this thread interesting and enjoyable.

Edited by Logan - May 16 2022 at 08:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 08:11
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Well, suitkees, as I see it,

Ah, and there is the problem. So, let me quote myself, as it is even more appropriate now, than it was before:
Originally posted by I I wrote:

 There is nothing in what you’ve quoted from Kees there that shows any influence of definition upon his appreciation. You do seem to understand things very differently from most people, and I think you infer from what they write your own understanding. There is nothing wrong with understanding things differently, but it is important to recognise that not everyone will think the way you do, so to frame their words by your own reference will often result in something quite different from what was actually said.

The only lack of understanding here, comes not from Kees (who appears to understand just fine), but from you. And this lack of understanding seems to come from having a very different understanding of how other people think, and being unaware that the way you think is very different from the way other people think.

Please stop trying to take the opinions of others and make them fit your way of thinking, because every time you do this, you misconstrue them. You’ve done it to Greg and Kees recently, and they are been extraordinarily gracious in the way they have taken it. One day you will do it to someone who doesn’t take it so well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 08:21
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

EDIT: Oh, good heavens... You're so almighty that you deleted your superior intelligent message. Now mine is wandering in the emptiness of my ignorance... and on this forum...

I deleted it at the time you wrote your reply, and posted a new one without knowing you did it. That was with the purpose, as you now can se, to write a better one. I wouldn't surely mind that you "delete" your reply and write also a new one, accomodated to my new one. 

While considering the way you have responded, I don't want to discuss it further.


Edited by David_D - May 16 2022 at 14:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 11:11

Nick, as I have told you before, I neither read nor respond to your posts anymore.







Edited by David_D - May 16 2022 at 11:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2022 at 17:37

But let my give you one example of what I mean which I remembered well, as I'm fond of Hybris:
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Oh boy oh boy, how can a symph prog clone beat one of the most (if not the most) original and successful neo-prog bands?
I must be getting old...

written in the poll  "Modern Prog: First Album", 15 April 2022, page 12.


Edited by David_D - May 17 2022 at 01:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2022 at 00:44
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But let my give you one example of what I mean which I remembered well, as I'm fond of Hybris:
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Oh boy oh boy, how can a symph prog clone beat one of the most (if not the most) original and successful neo-prog bands?
I must be getting old...
written in the poll  "Modern Prog: First Album", 15 April 2022, page 12.

If anybody should be in doubt about which bands and albums suitkees refers to, they are

Anglargård's Hybris  vs  Marillion's Script for a Jester's Tear  

while more objectively speaking, one can consider Neo-Prog as Neo-Symphonic, and maybe analyse more thoroughly the artistic values of these two albums.


Edited by David_D - May 17 2022 at 01:49
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