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Why Isn't Chicago (the band) Considered Prog?

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MortSahlFan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Isn't Chicago (the band) Considered Prog?
    Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:00
Great band, sold a ton.. Is it the horn section? Experimentation? The free form guitar jams? The combination of jazz, classical, soul, and the uniqueness of having three singers.

But if you ask people their favorite prog bands, you never ever see Chicago mentioned.. I also notice less mentions if they sold a lot of albums... For the band Chicago, I wonder if it was lack of sex appeal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:24
beacause they don't.

sirusely Chicago are one of my favorite bands, but they're just not a prog band.





Edited by yogev - April 13 2022 at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:26
Originally posted by yogev yogev wrote:

beacause they don't.


sirusely Chicago are one of my favorite bands, but they're just not a prog band.

Maybe their early work, after all they are on PA and i understand why. 
Beyond '78 I guess not so much. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:30
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by yogev yogev wrote:

beacause they don't.


sirusely Chicago are one of my favorite bands, but they're just not a prog band.

Maybe their early work, after all they are on PA and i understand why. 
Beyond '78 I guess not so much. 

Yeah now I see that they are on PA, which is pretty odd to me. the closest I can think of them to prog is the jazz fusion parts on chicago VII.



Edited by yogev - April 13 2022 at 12:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:32
What about Terry Kath Chicago? Let's forget they existed after 78.. After all, there's other bands that totally changed after a member left.. Pink Floyd was never the same after Roger Waters left, and I wouldn't call any of that stuff prog. Lots of other bands changed.. Yes with "Owner of a Lonely Heart", etc etc.

I guess Chicago had sax appeal, not sex appeal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 13:19
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Great band, sold a ton.. Is it the horn section? Experimentation? The free form guitar jams? The combination of jazz, classical, soul, and the uniqueness of having three singers.

But if you ask people their favorite prog bands, you never ever see Chicago mentioned.. I also notice less mentions if they sold a lot of albums... For the band Chicago, I wonder if it was lack of sex appeal.
If we discounted bands as being prog on the basis of sex appeal, I'm guessing there wouldn't be that many.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 13:31
Because they are jazz/rock fusion , but here on PA obviously.
Like the first 7...and imho the first 2 should be in every serious ,music collection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 13:54
Originally posted by yogev yogev wrote:

beacause they don't.






Yeah pretty much. This would be like asking why isn't The Clash or John Coltrane or Arlo Guthrie prog...their music isn't prog thus they aren't considered prog. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 14:28
I think they are considered prog by some but not by most maybe and not by enough people. I think the same could be said about Traffic though. Those early Chicago albums were often broken up into suites and the approach was different than psychedelic or jazz rock/ fusion so I really don't get it either. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 14:31
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Originally posted by yogev yogev wrote:

beacause they don't.






Yeah pretty much. This would be like asking why isn't The Clash or John Coltrane or Arlo Guthrie prog...their music isn't prog thus they aren't considered prog. 

Well, it's pretty obvious those aren't prog but with Chicago it's definitely not as clear cut. If prog to you means lot's of mellotrons, capes, Steve Hackett style guitar solos and three minute synth solos then no Chicago aren't prog. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 14:49
Just how much more prog do you need Chicago to be considered?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 15:08
I'm not sure I understand the opening question: Chicago has a place here in the PA database--under Jazz-Rock/Fusion. 

Personally, I only considered their first two albums as progressive rock, though elements of prog sounds and stylings pervaded lots of other songs of theirs. 

P.S. Terry Kath didn't mean to leave the band, he left the planet: accidentally shot himself while cleaning his guns in January of 1978. (Not a suicide.) Those present at the incident were totally shocked because Terry was such a careful master of his weapons collection.    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 16:17
Chicago was originally doing music that was called brass-rock (some even said horn-rock, apparently), and the very extensive use of wind instruments gave them a "jazz" slant. (something less true for Blood Sweat & Tears, with their syrupy string arrangements).

Yes, putting them (Chicago) in PA was a bit of a stretch (like a few dozens other entries), but the very ambitious songwriting was what clinched it to my eyes. Plus the fact that their CTA debut is a classic of psych-rock as well.

Aside their first three double albums (5 is in the same vein, but a single disc), their proggiest moment is on the first disc of VII (2/3 instrumental, btw), where they storm up the JR/F like Santana or
The second disc of VII is more of a return to classic Chicago sonics.

Here is what I had to say about VII:

With the catastrophic (for Chicago anyway) 6th album behind them, the group rebounded with a double album (just like in them good ol'days) and a wonderful carved-in-leather gatefold artwork, things were looking upwards - artistically-speaking, because financially they were never better sales-wise. The album starts on the instrumental mode for about 2/3 of the first disc and in the process presents Chicago's finest moment, then suddenly slumps and almost returns to the catastrophic VI album, but the group sprinkled some good tracks here and there and they finish strong on the fourth side of this double Lp.

I'm not sure you'll find a more perfect vinyl side on the first three Chicago album than you'll have on the opening side of VII, and it might come as a surprise, but it's mostly drummer Danny Seraphine's doing (with Parazaider's help), both who are not usual songwriters in the band. Out of nowhere rise wild tropical percussions, soon accompanied by a haunting flute complete with Mellotrons and cello (yesireeeebob) and the Prelude leads to the Aire track a delightful Latino-influenced (obviously, they heard Santana), but the track is a fine instrumental that allows the group to show their chops, including a fine Kath guitar solo over a Lamm electric piano in the second half. Great stuff accounting for near 10 mins, including the prelude, and showing Chicago could indeed go JR/F. The following10-mins Devil's Sweet starts on Coltrane (!) grounds with an eerie sax line, before slowly building an ever-changing instrumental track that carries the listener through a series of ambiances and climaxes that make this track just as impressive as Aire. Simply the best flipside of Chicago, it's just too bad the second half of Sweet is almost marred by a (short) drum solo before returning to the Trane sax line at the start of the track.

The flipside starts quite well too, with Italian From NY, an electronic noise that leads the group in a Soft Machine-type of groove with Kath's guitar pulling another interesting solo. The short Hanky Panky transforms the previous groove in a more traditional Chicago-type track. Get this: so far, this album has been all instrumental and while HP is segueing into the Beatle-esque Life Saver, the vocals start in the second part of that track. And just when you thought Cetera would screw things up, he pulls a slow jazzy tune Happy Man? well the track is easily the worst from the first disc, but it is one of the man's better writings, with Lamm's electric piano doing much over bongos and congas. I'd have much preferred this song on the second disc along with Pankow's Searching So Long, actually much worse tune in terms of cheesiness with string arrangements, but more uplifting.

The second disc is certainly not quite as excellent than its twin and it starts with Mongonucleosis, a Latino-fuelled instrumental light jazz-rock tune that will please everyone, including demanding progheads. While Kath's Evergreens proves to be his best song since their third album (good guitar solo, but his second song Byblos, an acoustic ditty is not of the same calibre, even if it evolves electric, it also overstays its welcome. Cetera's second song WYWH (nothing to do with Floyd, though) is definitely the stinker (and sinker) of the album, a soppy ballad, as atrocious as was the up-coming If You Leave Me Now (Yesssir, that bad!!)

Call On Me is a normal Chicago-track that would sit fine on V or even on disc1 of the present, but the final flipside's best moment is Lamm Women Don't Want To Love Me, a funky brassy track that rivals EW&F or K&tG's best moments, especially when Kath's guitar solo happens. The closing Skinny Boy is also very funky, this time closer to James Brown or Sly Stone. A fairly strong fourth side.

Definitely the band's best effort in their second chapter (mid-70's) and while some would advise to go one further, I'll stop at this one, one that starts out incredibly well, then slowly fades , but there is now and then a stellar track to lighten up a lengthy double album that would've made a dynamite single disc affair if condensed properly. Definitely worth an investigation, even maybe even the investment.

===========================

BTW, I understood Kath was playing Russian Roulette with a few buddies... and lost.
I could be confused with someone else, but I don't think so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 16:22
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the opening question: Chicago has a place here in the PA database--under Jazz-Rock/Fusion. 

Personally, I only considered their first two albums as progressive rock, though elements of prog sounds and stylings pervaded lots of other songs of theirs. 

P.S. Terry Kath didn't mean to leave the band, he left the planet: accidentally shot himself while cleaning his guns in January of 1978. (Not a suicide.) Those present at the incident were totally shocked because Terry was such a careful master of his weapons collection.    


I could be wrong but I believe there was only one other person he was showing his guns to (possibly a roadie or guitar tech but I'm not entirely sure -I'd have to look it up again). Apparently, the guy he was with told him to be careful and Terry said something like "don't worry, it's not loaded. See.." and pointed the gun to his head and that was it. One of the biggest tragedies in all of rock imo. Even with what he did do on the guitar up to the point of his death he should still be ranked up there with Clapton, Hendrix, Page, etc but unfortunately he usually isn't. To prove that point I saw this poster today while walking around in the mall (I don't remember which store exactly) and Terry Kath is nowhere to be found. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333699168102


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 13 2022 at 16:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 17:38
When you become a soft rock juggernaut you flatten all your previous achievements down into forgotten history so as not to frighten the horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 19:56
^ I like horses.

Technically if any band released one completely prog album, they must be added.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 20:21
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


Technically if any band released one completely prog album, they must be added.


As usual it's hard to say what constitutes a "completely prog" album.  I would say Joe Walsh should be included in proto prog, particularly for his work with the James Gang, Barnstorm and his first two "solo" albums, "The Smoker You Drink, the Player You Get" and "So What" (especially Barnstorm), but that just ain't gonna happen and is even less likely to happen because of his association with the Eagles.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - April 13 2022 at 20:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 20:29
Chicago are definitely prog.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 22:39
I always liked their first two albums, and hold them in quite high, but later, they lost that inventiveness, and went totally main stream, like Queen, Genesis, and many other bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 23:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I like horses.

Technically if any band released one completely prog album, they must be added.

So Bad Religion is in? 🤪


But seriously, what the heck is “completely prog”? People on this forum can’t even agree where the borders of what is or is not prog are, let alone what prog itself might be. You really think there is something that could be agreed by all to be “completely prog”? 😄🤪🤪🤪

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