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What does anyone hear in Porcupine Tree?
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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You do realize that the original recording of JTull TAAB is pretty bad right? And the SW remix of TAAB is pretty much lauded as how the record should have sounded upon original release. If you are simply listening to a CD of these recordings you also realize your not listening to the original mix, they have most probably been remastered for CD.
SW is not a Mastering engineer, he does not focus on that part of the process, his talents are in mixing and especially re-mixing older recordings, whether they are originally analog or digital. Unplugged was mastered by Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound, who is one of the best mastering engineers around but different than what a mixing engineer does.

I took a look James Taylor album as I don't have that one, originally mastered and cut by Darrell Johnson in 1970, don't know who he is.....but the remastered version you are probably hearing or streaming is from 2008 remastered and cut by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman, which I am sure is much better than the 1970 version. Again, those two are some of the best mastering engineers around.

If you don't like what SW does that's fine, but your opinion of his work would be in the severe minority.....Ask Robert Fripp as well Ian Anderson what they think of his work.
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^Wow!! You total ignored my point and went on a rant. I never said SW was bad at anything, all I said was there are many engineers who can record acoustic guitar as well as SW. BTW I owned TAAB on vinyl in the 70's. It sounded great to me and so does the original CD.
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

You do realize that the original recording of JTull TAAB is pretty bad right? And the SW remix of TAAB is pretty much lauded as how the record should have sounded upon original release.
...

Hi,

This is strange ... regardless of the "fact" that TAAB is supposed to have been a bad recording, in the end, it was still known and remembered and appreciated.

The SW remix, is the same thing as hearing an orchestra today doing Stravinsky or Beethoven ... it is much cleaner than before, and you will listen to it, and ... wow ... that's new ... I never heard that before kind of thing, and thus, the SW remix sounds way better, and we think that the original was bad. 

The "standards" have changed since the 70's. If you are suggesting that one recording is "better" than the other, I think you did not have a proper turntable and system to hear the original ... which would likely make it sound very poor specially when the CD was first made and it was a copy of a copy of a copy ... kind of thing. No master anywhere to be found is my thought.

"Should have sounded" is a bizarre idea ... so all the movies from 50 years ago were crap, because they did not have the far out this and that of today? Are you crazy?

The elements in "recording" have changed, and they have helped it look like things are better than they were before ... I don't think they are better ... they are simply a different take on how it was originally done! ... but the music is still ALIVE and appreciated. So, in some ways, a "remix" was not necessary!

In the end, the whole thing is NOTHING, except about how the technical end has changed and been improved so much in the last 50 years and some. Extremely visible in film. And even more so in music! Hard to believe that we think that we need to see a "new" reprint of 2001, in order to say that ... it is now even better than the original. Heck, even in the Cinerama Dome that was awesome. Even music hasn't tried that!


Edited by moshkito - February 14 2022 at 17:08
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2022 at 09:17
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Plus, nobody records an acoustic guitar as well as Steven.
Disagree. Not sure of the engineers, but Neil Young, Jim Croce, James Taylor, Willie Nelson, Glen Campbell, Jethro Tull, and others, have better acoustic guitar sounds, imo.


No I agree, you miss the point from BrufordFreak......SW is an excellent recording engineer and mixing engineer. So how he captures an acoustic guitar in this case, he is clearly one of the best.

Your talking about the sound these players make with their acoustic guitar vs how it is recorded.
You miss my point and have said the opposite of what I mean. I am not taking about the sounds those players make with acoustic guitar, I'm talking about how those instruments were recorded. All the artists I listed have better recorded sounds than SW, imo.

You wrote this.....
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Wow!! You total ignored my point and went on a rant. I never said SW was bad at anything, all I said was there are many engineers who can record acoustic guitar as well as SW. BTW I owned TAAB on vinyl in the 70's. It sounded great to me and so does the original CD.

It's not a rant, it's when people make claims with nothing much to back it up, but then default to their "own ears", which is perfectly fine but you made comments that go against the norm regarding a recording engineer. The point I am making is one that you keep skirting around, that you called out SW as not a good sound engineer.

You can carry on....I'm done with this thread.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

The point I am making is one that you keep skirting around, that you called out SW as not a good sound engineer.
Never did I say that SW was not a good sound engineer. You are twisting my words to create a false statement about what my point was. And I'm not going to repeat that point for the fifth time! You need to simmer down, Jose.

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

You do realize that the original recording of JTull TAAB is pretty bad right? And the SW remix of TAAB is pretty much lauded as how the record should have sounded upon original release.
 Again, I have the original vinyl. It sounds great. Do you have a the original vinyl release and did you A/B it with the SW remixed vinyl to back up your claim? 

And I'm sure you knew this about SW's TAAB mix. 
 
Ooops!






Edited by Grumpyprogfan - February 15 2022 at 10:32
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Meltdowner View Drop Down
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^ That's just a fade out that wasn't exactly like the original. It's bound to happen in a remix. From that snippet I prefered SW's mix, less compressed and the highs are less aggresive.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^Umm, the waveforms show more dynamic range on the original mix, specifically when the organ is shredding.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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These types of thread questions have gotten lame. I remember when we had one thread a month asking if TOOL were really prog. Times have sure have changed.

Edited by SteveG - February 15 2022 at 12:18
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

These types of thread questions have gotten lame. I remember when we had one thread a month asking if TOOL were really prog. Times have sure have changed.

I agree completely, Steve, but these types of threads have always been around.. I remember around 15 years ago, someone entitled a thread something like: Rush... Is that it?  LOL

Of course, they rarely lead to anything wholesome as the OP has already made their mind up about a subject and is just waiting for someone to 'bite'....
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My version of what I hear from Porcupine Tree is special. I don't need no stinking waveforms.
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Of course, they rarely lead to anything wholesome as the OP has already made their mind up about a subject and is just waiting for someone to 'bite'....

Ah, but nothing fires up a forum quite like conflict. Evil Smile
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Originally posted by Zeph Zeph wrote:

SW holds himself up as the savior of prog rock? Hasn’t he been trying to distance himself from the «prog» label all the time?

Whatever he has said or how someone has interpreted it, the fact remains that PT and SW are some of the most successfull and acclaimed acts of the 20th century. His work obviously connect with a lot of listeners, but everything can’t suit everyone. And that is fine.

When I look past the 70’s, PT/SW has put out some of the best music the last forty years. Certainly more interesting than what a lot of the top 70’s bands has produced in the same forty years.

I think he’s done a great job working metal and heavy rock into his music.

Don't disagree although I think it suited him to be attached to the label and also be aloof at the same time. The guy is not stupid although I am being ultra cynical . I did say I like a lot of his music and anyway the Raven That Refused To Sing is clearly not him distancing himself from the prog label as I see it Wink
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Always the same question: "Is this band progressive or not ?" Boring for me.
The most important question is: "Is it good or not ?"
And in my opinion, "new" bands like Porcupine Tree, The Pineapple Thief, ... are better than 80% of 70's progressive artists (compositions, vocals, production).
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Originally posted by PhideauxFan PhideauxFan wrote:

Always the same question: "Is this band progressive or not ?" Boring for me.
The most important question is: "Is it good or not ?"
And in my opinion, "new" bands like Porcupine Tree, The Pineapple Thief, ... are better than 80% of 70's progressive artists (compositions, vocals, production).

^This
And, of course, what is good for one person may not be for another. There’s no need to belittle what someone else enjoys just because you don’t. The arguments “against” PT in this thread are as boring as a certain someone on this forum who complains about Opeth every chance he can.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by PhideauxFan PhideauxFan wrote:

Always the same question: "Is this band progressive or not ?" Boring for me.
The most important question is: "Is it good or not ?"
And in my opinion, "new" bands like Porcupine Tree, The Pineapple Thief, ... are better than 80% of 70's progressive artists (compositions, vocals, production).

^This
And, of course, what is good for one person may not be for another. There’s no need to belittle what someone else enjoys just because you don’t. The arguments “against” PT in this thread are as boring as a certain someone on this forum who complains about Opeth every chance he can.


Hi,

I'm not sure it is about what someone enjoys and I don't (or the other way around), that is the issue ... when you have a well rounded schooling FOR LISTENING (I don't mean college or U.) ... you will not have "favorites", and will tend to be able to listen to a lot more music, and more different things. The big issue here, is that it's almost always VERY OBVIOUS when someone is not reading, listening, or give a band a chance ... one word comment ... "boring" ... with not explanation. All it says is that the person is not well rounded musically to even make that statement, and of course, that person will come after me, because they are not going to study a little more like I did for 50+ years.

I have a couple of favorites, but for me to sit here and say that one band is better than another ... is stupid!

What I hear in PT, or any other band, is not as important here, because the only thing you see is I like it and I don't ... and music, or any art, is NOT about liking or not ... it's about it making a statement that stood the test of time, and screw you and I if we don't agree. It stood up ... and all we are doing is crying because we can not stand up to the art!

PT is fine, and SW is fine. Not my "favorite" (check the new Marillion by comparison), because a lot of SW's words in my book, are not as important, and tend to go towards the pop sentimentality a lot more than it does about its importance and meaning! But maybe that's what I see!


Edited by moshkito - February 20 2022 at 07:00
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I'm not sure it is about what someone enjoys and I don't (or the other way around), that is the issue ...

Honestly, I think this is exactly the issue! At least, it is this kind of questions that fill PA's forum pages... (which might be considered "useful" to some). It is about appreciation and appreciating (positively or negatively) someone else's appreciation. This is - indeed - not so much about the music, but about our appreciation of that music, which is of course very personal and has nothing to do with any kind of objective stance about this or that music...

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I wish 'people' would stop making rules about music appreciation. People should be able to love or hate any particular music as much as they like. The whole 'making a statement' thing is dubious. Prog rock came at a time when there was more encouragement to be different. It's hard to expect musicians to make statements when they have families and themselves to feed. Music doesn't happen in a vacuum of artistic freedom most of the time. Whether we like it is up to us to decide , not some stuck up music critic or patronising so and so. Yep I will have a favourite album and a favourite artist and I will hate what I don't like and discard and even not make any effort to like it if I choose. I would even go as far to say that being open mindedness about music is not a virtue at all.
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PT never, ever clicked with me.

The rest of these conversations usually = gatekeeping rationalized as objective standard/merit somehow.

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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wish 'people' would stop making rules about music appreciation. People should be able to love or hate any particular music as much as they like. 
...
Hi,

I hope we don't think this is about "rules". My only thought is trying to identify why someone would simply "review" something on a thread with just one word! it seems ridiculous to me, and kinda suggests that the person was looking for something he/she did not get at all, and thus the comment. 

This is a thought, and not a reality as fas as I know.

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Prog rock came at a time when there was more encouragement to be different. It's hard to expect musicians to make statements when they have families and themselves to feed. 
... 

Not sure anything has changed, although I think (I THINK) that these days with the Internet it is a bit easier for bands to make a dollar or two (instead of a deal/contract) and thus keep going ... I do not exactly see how/why this would be an issue at all, in anyone's evaluation of the music.

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Music doesn't happen in a vacuum of artistic freedom most of the time. 
...

Correct. However, here (specially) it is really difficult to show folks the inspirations for many things, and one of the easiest to discuss is David Bowie who took on so much theater in his music, and no one seemed to complain about it. But it is a "problem" for "progressive music" for some reason, because it does not follow some invisible and ridiculous rules that have nothing to do with the music itself!

This is the main reason why I mention so much theater or film, and sometimes other arts, that inspire many, and in the past 40 years, these have not been as strong and valuable to the history of the media/medium as they were in the late 60's and early 70's. THAT, is not to say that nothing happened in the 80's, 90's and beyond, but that the adventuresome styles did not manifest themselves as well, and it might have been better (for example) if "new age" stuff did not make it look like a fad, and instead took its music, and arts more seriously other than a commercial trap for women!

I love to mention how Damo, Klaus (Kinski) and some films at the time, were so explosive in experimenting, and just recently, a book I can not even figure out how to write a review on, the work of Robert Altman, who was not one of the folks I enjoyed the most, but guess what ... he was one of the biggest improvisation artists of all time, and we're not just talking in front of the camera, we are also talking behind it, with lights, sound, and all the possible things that could be done or used. This kind of stuff is historic in film (see the film VISIONS OF LIGHT please to get a better idea!) ... however, when it comes to music, it seems to be ridiculously attached to drugs and one week (so to speak) in the life of a butterfly! And things being discussed as "hits" from the ratings and everything else that so many websites use, make this whole thing even worse ... like comparing apples to oranges! Both good for your diet, and yet, they don't do the same thing or offer the same results!

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
I would even go as far to say that being open mindedness about music is not a virtue at all.

Depends. I have no issues with the open mindedness, but I am not sure I enjoy reading so much about one band, and what would appear to be a very clear indicator that many people have not given something else a good listen ... in order to ensure that this "open mindedness" is more thoughtful and therefore, appreciated. Instead, it is many times centered, almost strictly, on making sure that many folks show themselves a part of the social milieu by also agreeing with all the others.

At that point, I'm not sure it is all "democratic" anymore, and it becomes might makes right and guess what ... here comes the glut, the commerciality and the wars! I think you would think slightly differently about these things if you had been born  into a country  that was mired in fascism, and made role play something to have fun with by taking out artists and writers. Because, their minds are a threat to their position! Europe lost a lot of folks, some not as well known, because of it ... and we still go about putting these folks down, when some trumpistas take the helm. 

It has to stop sometime, or we can not value "progressive music" or anything else in our life!



Edited by moshkito - March 05 2022 at 06:56
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