class in progressive rock

High culture and low culture? What is that and who classifies culture like that? I would avoid any writing that classifies music and culture in such terms. Wtf moment for me. 

Sorry, maybe I made a mistake in expression. What I said is "high culture, low culture" is not a judgment of value, or "elite culture, grassroots culture" might be more appropriate(the two are not diametrically opposed). Of course, these above are  just my hypothesis for now, what I want to do is to test, adjust, and perhaps overturn this hypothesis.

The concepts of high art and low art have been around for thousands of years (with the ancient Greeks and one also finds concepts of it in the "far east" and other places I'm sure). It wouldn't have been a luxury with more than one course I took in university not to spend any time reading up on that had I wished to do well. It was actually of interest to me and I did delve into that in essays (which related to film and literature, not music, although I did touch on that too come to think of it when I mentioned Alex's (of A Clockwork Orange) love of Beethoven in one paper and contrasted it with perceived "low art" and working class aspects.

That blend of high culture and low culture has been referenced in regards to art rock (sometimes used synonymously with progressive rock and with art pop).

I wrote this in a pop music topic at one time: "...some art pop artists, progressive pop artists, experimental pop artists, or avant pop artists (all can be conflated) sought to deconstruct pop music, to marry the popular with the esoteric, to elevate pop from its lowly roots to a serious art-form, or to create a dialectic between the low art and high art, a sort of conversation and synthesis of two worlds. Some of it is a celebration of the low, some of it is a commentary on the low arts and popular culture. Some is very conceptual. Some artists tried to buck the trends, played with genre bending, form and structure, and even set itself up against the mainstream and the industrial nature of pop manufacture, one might say Pop in Opposition (PIO/ Avant Pop)...." I was referencing/ remembering various things I've read over the years there with my own thoughts. I could substitute Prog there methinks.

From wikipedia on art rock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_rock It uses Ellen Willis:

"From the early sixties … there was a counter-tradition in rock and roll that had much more in common with high art—in particular avant-garde art—than the ballyhooed art-rock synthesis [progressive rock]; it involved more or less consciously using the basic formal canons of rock and roll as material (much as pop artists used mass art in general) and refining, elaborating, playing off that material to produce … rockand-roll art. While art rock was implicitly based on the claim that rock and roll was or could be as worthy as more established art forms, rock-and-roll art came out of an obsessive commitment to the language of rock and roll and an equally obsessive disdain for those who rejected that language or wanted it watered down, made easier … the new wave has inherited the counter-tradition.[14]"

I once asked, Speaking of art, would Prog be considered high art, low art, or mid-art? Or is it, perhaps, better to think, "It's only prog rock and roll, but I like it?" Never mind, I'm thinking of "stoner rock" -- now that's "high", but is it art? .

I think that some progressive rock artists took their music very seriously and did hope to elevate to so-called high art, to be taken seriously as art music (sophisticated), but I tend to look at it more that they drew on high-art music while still being rooted in popular music. Prog is a fusion of genres and influences with a rock (popular or low art) foundation. It has not been seen at the "level" of academic music or art music by serious" critics and academics generally, I believe -- not taken so seriously. I think RIO/Avant prog often comes closest to so-called modern classical music (Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Aranis....)

I wish I had good references to give you. Good luck with it, and welcome to PA. I hope you can find some time to visit here casually. :) I am interested in your project.

Edited by Logan - February 02 2022 at 05:38

Thank you for all of your responses.

Edited by Flash Allen - February 02 2022 at 19:28

Ever read Simon (brother of Fred) Frith's 'Sociology of Rock' (1978)?  It deals with exactly this issue.  I recall the fighting between Yes and SAHB fans at Loftus Road in 1975 as being class induced but maybe that was due to an over-zealous journalist... Good luck with the research!

Rick1 wrote: Ever read Simon (brother of Fred) Frith's 'Sociology of Rock' (1978)?  It deals with exactly this issue.  I recall the fighting between Yes and SAHB fans at Loftus Road in 1975 as being class induced but maybe that was due to an over-zealous journalist... Good luck with the research!

Have you heard any of the 4 albums by the Japanese string quartet The Morgaua Quartet, who otherwise record 'serious music' albums? Possibly not, so find the Denon Records catalogue. This band name was referred to here on PA a decade or so ago and turned out to be worth following. They demonstrate that with good arrangements, progressive rock compositions can be 'high art', whatever that is. In their repertoire, The Moragua Quartet, have played Yes, Krimson, ELP, Pink Floyd, etc. They are not the only ones, I have others string quartets interpretations of Kraftwerk, Rush and Mahavishnu Orchestra. As I recent wrote elsewhere jazz musicians are very happy to raid the progressive rock song book: Brad Mehldau's energetic retake of 'Tom Sawyer' being the case in point.... also previously attacked by the Bad Plus.

Definitely Listening To The Future by Bill Martin. He seems to take a very sociological approach.

Easy Money wrote: Flash Allen: "But in the end, it seemed that mainstream critics still regard progressive rock as a form of popular music rather than classical music. (I see little mention of progressive rock in the history of classical music.)" That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.

Edited by Sacro_Porgo - April 16 2022 at 22:42