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Punk Prog?

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Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2021 at 18:33
Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

The League Of Gentlemen starring Robert Fripp managed to create a fusion of prog and post-punk


This is very off topic but I need to chime in and say I love love love your avatar! Stolas! I have a trading card playmat with him on it. Love that show. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2021 at 18:38
Punk prog? I think Minute Men are pretty progressive for a hardcore punk band. Lots of off kilter stuff going on in their music, plus a massive double album with a loose car driving concept!

I've also heard Husker Du did the concept album thing on Zen Arcade, though I've yet to check it out.

On a more, er, sell-out-ish note... Green Day. Jesus Of Suburbia and Homecoming specifically. Progress hate them because they're so pop. Punks hate them because they went pop. I love them because they're darn great songwriters and players for their genre.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2021 at 19:17
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Punk prog? I think Minute Men are pretty progressive for a hardcore punk band. Lots of off kilter stuff going on in their music, plus a massive double album with a loose car driving concept!

I've also heard Husker Du did the concept album thing on Zen Arcade, though I've yet to check it out.

On a more, er, sell-out-ish note... Green Day. Jesus Of Suburbia and Homecoming specifically. Progress hate them because they're so pop. Punks hate them because they went pop. I love them because they're darn great songwriters and players for their genre.

Yep, American Idiot is very good and has some prog elements. Concept album, suites, songs transitioning into each other, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2021 at 20:11
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Punk prog? I think Minute Men are pretty progressive for a hardcore punk band. Lots of off kilter stuff going on in their music, plus a massive double album with a loose car driving concept!

I've also heard Husker Du did the concept album thing on Zen Arcade, though I've yet to check it out.

On a more, er, sell-out-ish note... Green Day. Jesus Of Suburbia and Homecoming specifically. Progress hate them because they're so pop. Punks hate them because they went pop. I love them because they're darn great songwriters and players for their genre.

Yep, American Idiot is very good and has some prog elements. Concept album, suites, songs transitioning into each other, etc.

Great album!

On a similar note, there's The Black Parade by My Chemical Romance, which has a couple of songs that are semi prog in structure, plus its another rock opera type ordeal.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2021 at 22:29
Punk Cajun Polka Disco Screamo.....does it exist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 00:51
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I think so called Art Punk is a good suggestion to investigate further. RYM describes this subgenre in this way: 
"Combination of stripped-down Punk Rock with "arty" elements of Minimalism, instrumental interplay, elements of Traditional Folk Music, experimentation with Jazz or Funk rhythms, dissonance, and noise experimentation." And that's inside the Prog definition I'd recommend (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58).
The highest ranked album in this subgenre on RYM is Television's Marqee Moon which seems quite proggy for me as well, and could maybe be classified on PA as Crossover Prog.

After second thought, try to view Art Punk in terms of Prog would easily be a violation of music history as Punk movement very much was established in opposition to Prog.
But still, Marqee Moon can be ear candy for quite a lot of modern Prog lovers. It is today for me even it took some time to get there - and it would be quite allright for me to call it Prog Punk.

And maybe, on the other hand, it would be not entirely stupid with a new Prog subgenre, called Progressive Punk.Star



Edited by David_D - November 04 2021 at 01:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 01:28
John Peel would spin in his grave at the mere suggestion of such a thing..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 02:10
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

John Peel would spin in his grave at the mere suggestion of such a thing..


John Peel is one thing but what would for instance Tom Verlaine of Television say? Angry - Even I'm not quite sure about that, neither on for instance Patti Smith's opinion in this issue.
Anyway, it could be distinguished between a historical and retrospective approach.


Edited by David_D - November 04 2021 at 02:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 03:08
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

After second thought, try to view Art Punk in terms of Prog would easily be a violation of music history as Punk movement very much was established in opposition to Prog.
And maybe, on the other hand, it would be not entirely stupid with a new Prog subgenre, called Progressive Punk.Star

The idea that punk was established in opposition to prog is largely a media invention. The two were nowhere near as diametrically opposed as people like to make out. And even if you are to make this kind of distinction, it is largely referring only to the UK punk scene. The US punk scene was part of the US prog scene.

I’ve read one interview with Iggy Pop, and I have no doubt there are probably others, where he says something along the lines of how The Stooges saw themselves as a progressive band and as an art rock band. He made the point that prog wasn’t a label that he’d heard of back then, but if he had, he had no doubt they’d have thought of themselves as a prog band.

It’s notable that in the US vs UK prog discussion awhile back, a lot of bands suggested for inclusion in the US prog umbrella are punk. Punk and prog have never been mutually exclusive, even in the UK - but in the US, they definitely co-existed.

Here’s just one of the posts I made in that discussion, which I think relates to this discussion:

Originally posted by I I wrote:

There has been US art and great US art (subjectivity put aside as much as possible) for as long as the US has been inhabited (let’s not forget Native American art). But for the Americans of European descent, a lot of that (Western) American art was either largely unknown and/or similar enough to the European artists to not be attractive to the average US citizen. (I know I a, grossly generalising here, but please bare with me!)

Andy Warhol’s pop art was a kick start for American art. Suddenly here was something identifiable and unmistakeable for anything other than being American. Andy Warhol’s prints infiltrated US homes in a way no other US artist had done before, and he is often erroneously considered the US’s first great artist, because of this. It was cool to have a piece of American art hanging on the wall in your house, because this art looked “American”. Warhol. But this is where Mike’s point kind of comes in. There are a myriad of works of art from various media that have either been forgotten, or were unknown, simply because they didn’t capture the spirit of the time. In recent years, more and more of these are being (re)discovered.

Andy Warhol did very little that was truly novel, but he did manage to capture the zeitgeist. He was the right person at the right time, and because of this he was absolutely a key figure in US prog (which, as per earlier posts on previous pages of this thread, already had some key proponents, that I guess may have been the US equivalent of proto-prog). Even something considered somewhat revolutionary like The Exploding Plastic Inevitable was actually nothing particularly new. There had been shows that integrated film, performance and music before. But again, Warhol was in the right place at the right time.

I think it’s worthwhile remembering that prog is a bit of a retrospective label, with it being used very rarely (if at all?) contemporaneously. And at the time, bands like the VU and the Stooges were routinely described as progressive, in the same way that UK bands we now know as prog were described as progressive. However the prog tag was largely put on only the progressive UK bands, and others around the world that sounded similar or were influenced by them, leaving the US progressive bands estranged by semantics and semiotics.

As for the Stooges since someone will probably bring them up, they were mentioned earlier by me. But when people think of the Stooges, it is inevitable that people think of their recordings, which were not representative of what they wanted to sound like. John Cale has mused that the band might have had a completely different future had they been allowed to record the albums they wanted to, but their label would have never let them. They were a progressive band in the same way the VU were. Their biggest stated influences were Sun-Ra and Harry Partch. They wanted to call themselves the Psychedelic Stooges Their live performances were improvisational and avant-garde. At every turn, the record company was saying no to what they wanted, and boxing them into something they considered more marketable. So maybe the debut Stooges album doesn’t sound prog, but it’s not the album they, or producer John Cale, wanted to make. Iggy was driven into a circle of drugs and depression, and the resulting second album is a mess that none of the band were interested in, and all have expressed dislike and disdain for. But even within these two albums that are more usually ascribed the punk label, there are still signs of the full on (US) prog that the Stooges were capable of.

Again, it’s as Mike says, sometimes something is simply not heard because at the time record companies weren’t willing to take a risk on something they considered too daring or out there. In the US, this worked against the prog bands in a way it did not in the UK. Because of the recognised great history of art in Europe, and because most of the UK prog bands drew on classical influences, as daring and different as they might have been, they were still recognisable as being part of the greater European art history. American prog was more idiosyncratic and avant-garde - and arguably more progressive because of that. But put aside the semantics, and I think it would be foolish to suggest that the US did not have its own prog scene. The bands and artists that made it up may not be recognised now as being prog, but that’s only a label. Take away the signifier, and the signified is what is is.


Edited by nick_h_nz - November 04 2021 at 03:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote d.o.k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 03:27
To me, the song "Rock Lobster" by the B-52's is a nice combination of a prog aspect with a punk sound. The rest of the album, which is their first one, may not be prog but it has some craziness that some prog lovers may like, notably in the vocal parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 03:33
thank you very much!!, nick_h_nz, very interesting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 03:46
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Of course it exists. Cardiacs are the most famous example.

I made this list on Rate Your Music

It's a small but interesting cross-pollination!


very impressing list, siLLy puPPy
Edit:
and in my opinion it can be a very good contribution to a serious consideration of establishing "Progressive Punk" on PA.


Edited by David_D - November 04 2021 at 04:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhideauxFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 04:34
Punk / New Wave / Progressive Rock by Phideaux (2005).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 05:23
Wire was referred to as "Punk Floyd" when they popped on the scene. You can't get more prog punk than that. Their album Pink Flag is excellent.  

Edited by SteveG - November 04 2021 at 05:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 05:41
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Punk prog? I think Minute Men are pretty progressive for a hardcore punk band. Lots of off kilter stuff going on in their music, plus a massive double album with a loose car driving concept!

Minutemen also came up in the UK/US prog discussion. Much of that discussion was about how often prog is viewed largely framed by European symphonic prog, and European classical influences, while what could be termed US prog sounded very different. Obviously the following quotation references previous posts in the UK/US discussion, but I think the overall points are not lost without needing to refer back. And, ultimately, I’m sharing this just because I would agree that Minutemen could be viewed as prog.

Originally posted by I I wrote:

 I know classical is one thing brought up (including by myself) as the difference between UK and US prog, but I don’t think classical influence in US prog detracts from Bryan’s thesis. The classical influences of US prog artists tends to come from US composers (such as Henry Cowell) or from foreign composers who spent much of their life in the US, where they could have more freedom than in their home countries (and it is that sense of freedom which is intrinsic and integral to Bryan’s thesis, from my reading). Composers like Leo Ornstein and Edgard Varese (and to a lesser extent, Igor Stravinsky) all composed most of their important and influential classical works in the US.

Captain Beefheart was influenced by a lot of free jazz, and since I’ve already mentioned him, Ornette Coleman is one such influence. This jazz influence runs through future potential US prog bands, even when it is unexpected. Minutemen are probably not a band that immediately springs to mind as being prog (most of their early songs were only a minute or so long), and ostensibly punk. But their main stated influence was always Captain Beefheart, and they would list off jazz and funk artists as influences.  Mike Watt of the Minutemen has an extensive discography which is all over the place musically, as he has always had an experimental and progressive mindset. He is presently a member of Banyan, who are part of the modern art rock scene. They are a bit prog, a bit jazz, a bit funk, and a lot of fun. Banyan’s stated influences are Igor Stravinsky and Miles Davis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 07:34
I think two from California might fit, the aforementioned Minutemen (from my home town of San Pedro) and also a band that was active in Santa Cruz in the early to mid 80's, Tao Chemical.  Santa Cruz became another home town for me in those days.  The band was fronted by Rob Breszny, who has a syndicated astrology column that is very different from the usual, which was also begun in those Santa Cruz years.  The band coined it's music at the time as "avant-gauche prague rock and Pagan gospel muzak." YT does have a live video of them available filmed in 1985.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 09:59
Very happy to see others agree about Minutemen. First time I heard them I wished I'd started with them rather than Black Flag or Minor Threat in my venture into hardcore punk. So versatile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mirakaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2021 at 16:29
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

i’d say “Small Parts Isolated and Destroyed” has the highest concentration of prog-like song structures. It’s also pretty weird, in a good way - lots of weird chords and sudden stops/starts, and very long songs.

You might also want to try “Wrong”, which combines really complex parts with a much more aggressive and punky sound on more concise songs (it’s a fan favorite too). The nucleus of the band is a pair of brothers on bass & drums, both amazing players (I would call the drummer a virtuoso on the level of Bruford), and the parts they write (and sing over- great lyrics too) can be pretty amazing to hear.


Thanks, I'm only marginally familiar with the band but my interest is piqued now

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

This is very off topic but I need to chime in and say I love love love your avatar! Stolas! I have a trading card playmat with him on it. Love that show. :)


Awesome! I have two t-shirts with characters from Vivienne Medrano's cartoons; I adore her work Heart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2021 at 01:21
To nick_h_nz: I agree with you about the media invention of prog vs. punk to an extent. I think this is one of those delineating-prog-and-"progressive" moments. Many punk bands going into the 80s were definitely progressive or incorporating progressive elements. The idea that punk is all about "simple" isn't entirely true. Though, to be fair, I think it's really the post-punk groups that were actually on the bleeding edge.

However, from my understanding, a lot of the early driving force behind the punk music movement had to do with rebelling against "dinosaur rock." Obviously, this is a lot of what we now call "Classic Rock" that was being churned out in the late 60s to mid-70s, and the classic "prog" (the style) sound of that time fits under that umbrella. And of course, they also generally hated disco.

But sure, to say The Ramones were a reaction to Yes would be just as correct as saying they were a reaction to Led Zeppelin or Steely Dan or CSN/Y or Elton John. The idea that punk was meant to "anti-prog" specifically is a very prog-biased point of view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2021 at 01:29
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

The idea that punk was meant to "anti-prog" specifically is a very prog-biased point of view.

I think, you've got a good point there.
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