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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 09:33
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Cool list. One release per band is excellent. 


I also think one album per artist is an excellent idea, otherwise my own personal list would consist mostly of Mostly Autumn and Renaissance albums. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 10:15
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Cool list. One release per band is excellent. 


I also think one album per artist is an excellent idea, otherwise my own personal list would consist mostly of Mostly Autumn and Renaissance albums. Smile


Nothing wrong with that. We like what we like (and it doesn't have to be in our wardrobe ;)).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:01
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Cool list. One release per band is excellent. 


I also think one album per artist is an excellent idea, otherwise my own personal list would consist mostly of Mostly Autumn and Renaissance albums. Smile


Nothing wrong with that. We like what we like (and it doesn't have to be in our wardrobe ;)).

I think good balance with top lists like that is on the one hand let them inspire you to broaden your musical horizon but on the other hand don't let them dictate too much to you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:35
It is a very bad, terrible ranking, as was to be expected, given that it takes into account, giving it half the weight, the RYM ranking which, as I have already said, counts like ZERO for me. The Progarchives ranking, obtained randomly like that of RYM but more balanced because, I suppose made only by prog enthusiasts (and giving more weight to the site's collaborators), and the appreciable work of David_D (one album per artists) manages to limit the damage done by RYM, but when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.

Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 31 2021 at 11:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:46
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

An "all-time top albums list" doesn't quite seem right while limiting bands to one submission per. The Beatles, the Stones, Elton John, U2, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Coldplay, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, W.A Mozart, J.S. Bach, and Giacomo Puccini mitred down to one single album? Might as well be a "greatest hits" album! Tull's M.U., ELP's Works, The Beatles' red and/or blue compilation albums, Floyd's Echoes, or a band's live album! 

No, sir, this is not a parameter worthy of true music lovers.


The problem is that in RYM the Pink Floyd albums occupy positions 1, 3, 5, 7 (4 places of the top 7), so, since Pink Floyd are also well positioned in Progarchives (3 albums in the top 10 ) if David hadn't chosen an album by artist, we would probably end up with Pink Floyd occupying 4 positions of the top 5 or 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:49
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

It is a very bad, terrible ranking, as was to be expected, given that it takes into account, giving it half the weight, the RYM ranking which, as I have already said, counts like ZERO for me. The Progarchives ranking, obtained randomly like that of RYM but more balanced because, I suppose made only by prog enthusiasts (and giving more weight to the site's collaborators), and the appreciable work of David_D (one album per artists) manages to limit the damage done by RYM, but when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.
Your expectations are too high. It counts as the preferences of 10 000’s (or 100 000’s) of music interested people from about 13 to 80 years old. Lots of teenagers among these raters really, and the have far more advanced tastes than I did at that age. There’s so much crap out there I’m glad they’ve come up with a top 100 like this. Yours wasn’t any better - or more representative really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:17
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.

I'm surprised  Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:19
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:



I'm surprised  Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all. Tongue


Why? You know lots of people rate it very highly

Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - October 31 2021 at 12:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:32
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.
Wow!! To think that yours is the only opinion that matters, and everyone else should bow down and agree with you. Wow!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:37
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:



I'm surprised  Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all. Tongue


Why? You know lots of people rate it very highly

I know Pawn Hearts is generally highly-regarded here at PA, but it all comes down to personal tastes. I love VDGG's two classic  5-star albums from 1970, having bought them both on CD, but I've never been able to appreciate the complexities of the 2-star Pawn Hearts album, despite having listened to the album three times now. Anyway, what would you expect from someone whose all-time favourite ELO album is Xanadu. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:37
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.
Wow!! To think that yours is the only opinion that matters, and everyone else should bow down and agree with you. Wow!!

I agree
but then  jamesbaldwin (Lorenzo) is Italian, so i understand why he's upset. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 13:52
There's some interesting discussion here because it's an interesting question what my list exactly can be said to be an expression of. There surely are differences between RYM and PA raters so maybe it's not so much about whom my list represent but just which albums are highest rated. And then just accept that the raters may have very different music preferences which partly is the case as well even if we only talk about PA raters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 14:08
How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 15:01
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't

The starting point was my definition of Prog which you can see here http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58 , and which largely speaking was equal to the subgenres used by PA. Then I used these subgenres to search for all the relevant bands on RYM, and on the basis of my definition and PA's decisions, I decided which bands to include or not include. There was of course some subjective elements there.
As far it concerns Post-Rock bands, I wanted to include those whose music might be said to have sufficient complexity. I chose not to include at that time relevant (in term of ratings) Radiohead albums because I didn't find them to be sufficiently complex. That was of course my personal choice, and somebody else could decide otherwise.

Edit:
About Post-Rock and Radiohead, I better say, I don't remember exactly my thoughts at the time I made this list but I was thinking of course in terms of my Prog definition. And I must admit that I was in doubt about Radiohead's Kid A, however you want to classify it.
By the way, whatever to think about this question, I can surely recommend to read my interesting article about Prog definitions.


Edited by David_D - November 03 2021 at 02:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 18:01
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't

The starting point was my definition of Prog which you can see here http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58 , and which largely speaking was equal to the subgenres used by PA. Then I used these subgenres to search for all the relevant bands on RYM, and on the basis of my definition and PA's decisions, I decided which bands to include or not include. There was of course some subjective elements there.
As far it concerns Post-Rock bands, I wanted to include those whose music might be said to have sufficient complexity. I chose not to include at that time relevant (in term of ratings) Radiohead albums because I didn't find them to be sufficiently complex. That was of course my personal choice, and somebody else could decide otherwise.

Edit:
And I must admit that I was in doubt about Radiohead's Kid A, however you want to classify it.


In terms of complexity Radiohead should definitely make it, if that's the parameter. Though I don't think it is personally. Queen is more complex than Floyd, for instance, but I don't consider the former a prog band and I do the latter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 18:48
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

It is a very bad, terrible ranking, as was to be expected, given that it takes into account, giving it half the weight, the RYM ranking which, as I have already said, counts like ZERO for me. The Progarchives ranking, obtained randomly like that of RYM but more balanced because, I suppose made only by prog enthusiasts (and giving more weight to the site's collaborators), and the appreciable work of David_D (one album per artists) manages to limit the damage done by RYM, but when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.
Your expectations are too high. It counts as the preferences of 10 000’s (or 100 000’s) of music interested people from about 13 to 80 years old. Lots of teenagers among these raters really, and the have far more advanced tastes than I did at that age. There’s so much crap out there I’m glad they’ve come up with a top 100 like this. Yours wasn’t any better - or more representative really.

Precisely because a lot of votes come from teenagers, this list counts nothing to me. If you look at the ratings of Pink Floyd's records in the top 10 you see that they are about DOUBLE than those of the other albums present (apart from In the Court of ...), What does it mean? That The Dark Side of the Moon is a status symbol, everyone knows him, and therefore if someone passes by RYM he gives him 5 stars, especially if he knows not too much music and not too prog. My friends who are Tool fans would never dream of commenting a prog chart where Tool comes before Van der Graaf (also because they don't consider Tool music as prog).

My list can be judged as you want, but what matters is the seriousness and the criterion, not the tastes, and from this point of view, mine is a serious list because made to be a ranking, the RYM ranking is simply a random list due to the collection of votes from anonymous people (I can't take it seriously, it mostly depends on the popularity of the artists and from the tastes of those who follow RYM).


What I find difficult to explain is 


@Grumpyprogfan
that my criterion for distinguishing serious rankings, that is done with method, and non-serious rankings, has (almost) nothing to do with my tastes.

I try to give an example: in my ranking, divided into three blocks, the most popular bands are
King Crimson, Pink Floyd and Van der Graaf (5 albums in total: 1 + 2 + 2). Genesis and Yes have 4 albums, but only one in the second block (1 + 1 + 2), EL & P are the most snubbed, with only 1 album in the last block.

If a reviewer made a list by reversing the positions of EL & P, Yes and Genesis with KC, PF, VdGG, leaving the VdGGs only 1 album in the third block (as I did with EL & P), I would consider his list serious.
I would notice that we have different critical evaluations, me with higher marks towards the eclectic prog and psychedelia, he towards the symphonic prog with music made with virtuosity.
In short, it takes method, and there are some stakes not to be overcome.

In my opinion, if a prog list puts Tool and Rush and Opeth 

(or Il Bacio della Medusa, La Coscienza di Zeno, La Maschera di Cera, to say three highly rated recent Italian groups) 


before KC or PF or VdGG or Genesis or Yes (with EL&P there would already be discussion) it got no value.

Camille Saint Saens was a musical genius, I read that he had an ease in writing clear melodies comparable to that of WA Mozart, but no music critic dreams of putting the genius of Saint Saens before that of Mozart.
(But perhaps a class of high school students who have listened to the Carnival of the animals (i.e- TDSOTM) many times could put it before Mozart).


Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 31 2021 at 18:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 19:13
^Allan Holdsworth and Pat Metheny are musical geniuses, imo. Neither is on this top 100 list. And it's a good list, as good as your "serious ranking list". So are my picks more valid than yours? Nope. Just a list, not the holy grail.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - October 31 2021 at 19:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2021 at 23:06
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't

The starting point was my definition of Prog which you can see here http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58 , and which largely speaking was equal to the subgenres used by PA. Then I used these subgenres to search for all the relevant bands on RYM, and on the basis of my definition and PA's decisions, I decided which bands to include or not include. There was of course some subjective elements there.
As far it concerns Post-Rock bands, I wanted to include those whose music might be said to have sufficient complexity. I chose not to include at that time relevant (in term of ratings) Radiohead albums because I didn't find them to be sufficiently complex. That was of course my personal choice, and somebody else could decide otherwise.

Edit:
And I must admit that I was in doubt about Radiohead's Kid A, however you want to classify it.

I can additionally tell that I decided not to include all of the highrated, different kind of Metal bands (there would be a lot of them), so yes, this list is a result of some of my personal choices, and it just can't be otherwise.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 01:08
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'm surprised Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all. Tongue

 
Why? You know lots of people rate it very highly
 
Yes, and some people even rate it above all other albums.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 03:22
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

There's some interesting discussion here because it's an interesting question what my list exactly can be said to be an expression of. There surely are differences between RYM and PA raters so maybe it's not so much about whom my list represent but just which albums are highest rated. And then just accept that the raters may have very different music preferences which partly is the case as well even if we only talk about PA raters.

But I would like to hear your opinion about what a list like that can be said to be an exactly expression of. Most appreciated/"greatest"/"best" albums? A lot of coincidences? A lot of raters following trend setters? Or what?
And I've surely heard jamesbaldwin's - with all respect.
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