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Peter Hammill, the first true punk?

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softandwet View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 12 2021 at 13:32
I've been hanging around, waiting for my chance
To tell you what I think about the music that's gone down
To which you madly danced – frankly, you know that it stinks.
I'm gonna scream, gonna shout, gonna play my guitar
Until your body's rigid and you see stars.
Look at all the jerks in their tinsel glitter suits.
Pansying around; look at all the nerks
In their leather platform boots, making with the heavy sound...
I'm gonna stamp on the stardust and scream till I'm ill –
If the guitar don't get ya, the drums will.
Now's my big break – let me up on the stage,
I'll show you what it's all about; enough of the fake,
Bang your feet in a rage, tear down the walls and let us out!
We're more than mere morons, perpetually conned,
So come on everybody, smash the system with the song.
Smash the system with the song!


Did Peter Hammill really pre-figured the John Lydon attitude with those lyrics and sound, or was there another
band from which Hammill took his inspiration? It seems like he really have a fore-sight ability if so.Tongue




Edited by softandwet - May 12 2021 at 13:33
So don’t evade the surgeon’s blade
Cos the answer could be in your mind
Maybe one cut and we’ll find
We’re just a wavelength behind

But we are entwined

And I know what you need
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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 14:09
That's a tough call. He was definitely an influence on punk but so was The Velvet Underground, The Stooges and other lesser known bands like Death (the Detroit band), MC5 and even Captain Beefheart!

I've done a bit of research on this but indeed Peter Hammill was and still is a one of a kind musical icon who transcended petty genre distinctions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neu!mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 14:29
I think the honor rightly belongs to Alan Vega and Martin Rev (aka Suicide), but PH was still ahead of the curve when he assumed the persona of Ricki Nadir.
"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 14:47
Lydon was a big Van Der Graaf Generator fan.
I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 17:00
Ton Steine Scherben play "Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht" - "destroy what destroys you" in 1972.
Amon Düül were quite punk as well by the way, in the beginning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 17:27
Reading these lyrics: I guess he was - if punk means self-indulgence, self-positioning, pretentiousness and lack of subtlety...


Edited by The Anders - May 12 2021 at 17:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 18:01
It looks like he was into something, but I don't think he was the the first one with these ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2021 at 00:19
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

That's a tough call. He was definitely an influence on punk but so was The Velvet Underground, The Stooges and other lesser known bands like Death (the Detroit band), MC5 and even Captain Beefheart!

I've done a bit of research on this but indeed Peter Hammill was and still is a one of a kind musical icon who transcended petty genre distinctions.

I remember coming across Death while looking for Death and being confused AF lol.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2021 at 01:35

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2021 at 08:45
Apart from say, H to He Who Am the Only One, I've never been entirely convinced that either VDGG or solo Peter Hamill were conventionally Prog as outlined by any of the definitions available on PA. As also evidenced by King Crimson, the Eclectic label seems a bit of a stretch for any creative association that transcends any such perceived boundaries. The lyrics quoted by the OP are from Nadir's Big Chance from 1975 where Hammill inhabits the persona of prototypical Punk and inarticulate 'yoof' Rikki Nadir so there is some dramatic irony involved i.e. the same realm where theater ponces pretend they can't read a.k.a. white dopes on punk. Of the 11 tracks only about 5 are recognizably Punk in style and there's a danger in conflating anything John Lydon likes as being an endorsement of its Punk credentials. Like Hammill, VDGG and Crimson, Lydon outgrew his formative influences and matured into a discerning and thoughtful artist capable of growing into middle age and beyond producing work that is as relevant to us today as those it was inspired by in 1975
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gentle and Giant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2021 at 11:56
I recall Bruce Dickinson's autobiography where he harks back to his formative years and his love for Van der Graaf Generator. Maybe they influenced NWOBHM too.
Oh, for the wings of any bird, other than a battery hen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2021 at 01:29
Nadir's Big Chance was recorded in 1974 and released  in early 1975, but I think all or at least most of the songs on it were actually old material, were written in the late 60s, in the early days of VdGG, most before they had recorded anything.

It is a kind of twin album to Fool's Mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2021 at 06:20
Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I recall Bruce Dickinson's autobiography where he harks back to his formative years and his love for Van der Graaf Generator. Maybe they influenced NWOBHM too.


Not sure about Hammill's influence on NWOBHM, but I always felt he had been an influence on Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Not many other folk would agree. I have weird ears..

It first struck me on Still Life when he sings:

"Take away the threat of death, and all your left with is a round of make believe"

..and on the middle section of Sleepwalkers, perhaps to a lesser extent..

"Tonight, before you lay down to the sweetness of your sleep
Do you question your surrender to the drop from Lover's Leap etc.."
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2021 at 11:23
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I recall Bruce Dickinson's autobiography where he harks back to his formative years and his love for Van der Graaf Generator. Maybe they influenced NWOBHM too.


Not sure about Hammill's influence on NWOBHM, but I always felt he had been an influence on Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Not many other folk would agree. I have weird ears..

It first struck me on Still Life when he sings:

"Take away the threat of death, and all your left with is a round of make believe"

..and on the middle section of Sleepwalkers, perhaps to a lesser extent..

"Tonight, before you lay down to the sweetness of your sleep
Do you question your surrender to the drop from Lover's Leap etc.."

Rob Halford is a huge fan of Peter Hammill. He was at the reunion concert of VdGG on May 6th 2005. As were Fish, John Lydon, Bruce Dickinson, Julian Cope and David Bowie, to name but a few.

And anybody who has ever heard the Van der Graaf live album "Vital" knows why.




Edited by BaldFriede - May 24 2021 at 11:33


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2021 at 01:34
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I recall Bruce Dickinson's autobiography where he harks back to his formative years and his love for Van der Graaf Generator. Maybe they influenced NWOBHM too.


Not sure about Hammill's influence on NWOBHM, but I always felt he had been an influence on Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Not many other folk would agree. I have weird ears..

It first struck me on Still Life when he sings:

"Take away the threat of death, and all your left with is a round of make believe"

..and on the middle section of Sleepwalkers, perhaps to a lesser extent..

"Tonight, before you lay down to the sweetness of your sleep
Do you question your surrender to the drop from Lover's Leap etc.."

Rob Halford is a huge fan of Peter Hammill. He was at the reunion concert of VdGG on May 6th 2005. As were Fish, John Lydon, Bruce Dickinson, Julian Cope and David Bowie, to name but a few.

And anybody who has ever heard the Van der Graaf live album "Vital" knows why.






Cool. I knew I could hear Hammill in Halfords voice from time to time. It's not surprising that Bowie was an admirer.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2021 at 12:41
Iggy Pop is on his way to your house to have a word with you. Wink

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 19 2021 at 12:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2021 at 12:42
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I recall Bruce Dickinson's autobiography where he harks back to his formative years and his love for Van der Graaf Generator. Maybe they influenced NWOBHM too.


Not sure about Hammill's influence on NWOBHM, but I always felt he had been an influence on Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Not many other folk would agree. I have weird ears..

It first struck me on Still Life when he sings:

"Take away the threat of death, and all your left with is a round of make believe"

..and on the middle section of Sleepwalkers, perhaps to a lesser extent..

"Tonight, before you lay down to the sweetness of your sleep
Do you question your surrender to the drop from Lover's Leap etc.."

Rob Halford is a huge fan of Peter Hammill. He was at the reunion concert of VdGG on May 6th 2005. As were Fish, John Lydon, Bruce Dickinson, Julian Cope and David Bowie, to name but a few.

And anybody who has ever heard the Van der Graaf live album "Vital" knows why.



I'll bet Peter Gabriel was there too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2021 at 13:01
I've heard of Los Saicos from Peru described as the first punk band, though I'd sooner describe it as a garage band (and proto-punk perhaps).  The singer became a working physicist, unlike many in punk. Interesting and very enjoyable to me 1964-65 music.





Edited by Logan - June 19 2021 at 13:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2021 at 13:52
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I've heard of Los Saicos from Peru described as the first punk band, though I'd sooner describe it as a garage band (and proto-punk perhaps).  The singer became a working physicist, unlike many in punk. Interesting and very enjoyable to me 1964-65 music.

Hmmm...this single was actually released prior to Los Saicos (they did not sign a recording contract until early 1965), The Kinks from August, 1964 (in the UK, in the U.S. September, 1964)....



This single came out in the UK October, 1964 (U.S. December, 1964)....






Edited by The Dark Elf - June 19 2021 at 13:53
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2021 at 13:56
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Iggy Pop is on his way to your house to have a word with you. Wink

Iggy Pop would have kicked Hammill's a**. And then probably smeared poor Pete's blood on himself and jumped back onstage.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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