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Jethro tull is the most anti-religous, religous
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

But agnostics just don't know either way, so they avoid the belief  that no God exists. A lack of proof is not proof.

Spot on....I have always thought that agnosticism is  the only tenable position on this since there is absolutely no way we can know one way or the other if an omnipotent being exists (no matter how one envisions it).

Regarding Tull, I never felt he or they were particularly 'anti -religious'....though Andersen certainly had comments on the area over the years.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ yeah, i never really considered Sabbath satanic but they seem to be viewed by some as such. Now King Diamond and Coven? Yep.

Just goes to show that a lot of folks don't bother to do their research before they start criticizing things they don't like. 
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Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is the absence of such a belief. It doesn’t mean that one can’t be agnostic as well, and I suspect there are more agnostic atheists than there are atheists who completely reject the idea of the existence of a god or gods.

I am definitely an agnostic atheist. That is to say, I’m atheist in that I have no personal belief in the existence of a god or gods; but I’m agnostic in that the existence of a god or gods is ultimately unknowable.

It is possible, of course, also to be an agnostic theist, though I suspect this is a far rarer occurrence.
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ yeah, i never really considered Sabbath satanic but they seem to be viewed by some as such. Now King Diamond and Coven? Yep.

Just goes to show that a lot of folks don't bother to do their research before they start criticizing things they don't like. 


That is unfortunately the case in just about everything these days. Sabbath actually had some seriously positive lyrics and really was more in the hippie love and peace realm. I guess lyrics such as "Pope on a rope" invoked a bit of wrath from Christians but once one really delves into the history of the Catholic Church, it doesn't take long to realize that THEY are the ultimate satanic cult of all.

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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is the absence of such a belief. It doesn’t mean that one can’t be agnostic as well, and I suspect there are more agnostic atheists than there are atheists who completely reject the idea of the existence of a god or gods.

I am definitely an agnostic atheist. That is to say, I’m atheist in that I have no personal belief in the existence of a god or gods; but I’m agnostic in that the existence of a god or gods is ultimately unknowable.

It is possible, of course, also to be an agnostic theist, though I suspect this is a far rarer occurrence.




Being an atheist is simply another form of fundamentalism. All of creation is based on a spectrum of frequencies, each of which consists of a higher vibrational field or bandwidth frequency of reality (much like radio or TV). The godhead is simply the pinnacle of this creation and far beyond any human's ability to comprehend. If one deems a god or gods simply as "creator(s)" then of course there is a primary force in the universe however once one jumps to conclusions about what that imperceptible force actually is, then we have a problem. I was an agnostic for much of my life but sometimes the universe will provide clues as to a higher intelligence at play, whatever that may be, however i've had plenty of personal experiences that cannot be explained by rational human reasoning.

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Being an atheist is simply another form of fundamentalism. All of creation is based on a spectrum of frequencies, each of which consists of a higher vibrational field or bandwidth frequency of reality (much like radio or TV). The godhead is simply the pinnacle of this creation and far beyond any human's ability to comprehend. If one deems a god or gods simply as "creator(s)" then of course there is a primary force in the universe however once one jumps to conclusions about what that imperceptible force actually is, then we have a problem. I was an agnostic for much of my life but sometimes the universe will provide clues as to a higher intelligence at play, whatever that may be, however i've had plenty of personal experiences that cannot be explained by rational human reasoning.
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I always ask people who say "God doesn't exist" how they define God because most actually don't know. I even got the answer "I don't need to define him; he doesn't exist".


Do I have to hear the definition of God by billions of people before being an atheist? And, do I have to continue hearing its new definitions for eternity, so that I can never be an atheist in your eye?

This is ridiculous. We discussed this with you or Jeanine earlier. You (or she) claimed that there can actually be no atheists in the world.

This is useless, as they're (or were, anyways) high-priestesses in some kind of Tree-worshipping christianity pagan rites.

Impossible to discuss seriously with them about this particular subjectSleepy
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is the absence of such a belief. It doesn’t mean that one can’t be agnostic as well, and I suspect there are more agnostic atheists than there are atheists who completely reject the idea of the existence of a god or gods.

I am definitely an agnostic atheist. That is to say, I’m atheist in that I have no personal belief in the existence of a god or gods; but I’m agnostic in that the existence of a god or gods is ultimately unknowable.

It is possible, of course, also to be an agnostic theist, though I suspect this is a far rarer occurrence.




Being an atheist is simply another form of fundamentalism.

It really isn’t. Atheism, per se, is not the denial that a god or gods exist. There are some atheists who will make that denial, and you could call them fundamentalists. But in general it just means that the person doesn’t hold a belief themselves.  My being an atheist doesn’t mean I deny the existence of a god or gods, so much as I don’t believe it at present.

My agnosticism says it’s knowable at present, which is not to say it is infinitely unknowable. There may well become a point where it becomes knowable, at which time my atheism will either be challenged or confirmed. But most atheists will be happy for their beliefs to be challenged, because that is how science works.




Edited by nick_h_nz - April 24 2021 at 09:26
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ yeah, i never really considered Sabbath satanic but they seem to be viewed by some as such. Now King Diamond and Coven? Yep.

Just goes to show that a lot of folks don't bother to do their research before they start criticizing things they don't like. 


That is unfortunately the case in just about everything these days. Sabbath actually had some seriously positive lyrics and really was more in the hippie love and peace realm. I guess lyrics such as "Pope on a rope" invoked a bit of wrath from Christians but once one really delves into the history of the Catholic Church, it doesn't take long to realize that THEY are the ultimate satanic cult of all.

I mean... I did mention I'm Catholic right? Lol. I definitely don't agree with you about Catholocism being Satanic, but the Church definitely has more than its fair share of horrible, sacrilegious decisions in its long history (the crusades anyone?). So criticism, especially of the Church's history, is fine by me, so long as its well reasoned.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is the absence of such a belief. It doesn’t mean that one can’t be agnostic as well, and I suspect there are more agnostic atheists than there are atheists who completely reject the idea of the existence of a god or gods.

I am definitely an agnostic atheist. That is to say, I’m atheist in that I have no personal belief in the existence of a god or gods; but I’m agnostic in that the existence of a god or gods is ultimately unknowable.

It is possible, of course, also to be an agnostic theist, though I suspect this is a far rarer occurrence.




Being an atheist is simply another form of fundamentalism.

It really isn’t. Atheism, per se, is not the denial that a god or gods exist.





Dude. Atheism is EXACTLY the denial that a god or gods exist. That's its dictionary definition.

a·the·ism

 (ā′thē-ĭz′əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhēs- in Indo-European roots.]
a′the·ist n.
a′the·is′tic, a′the·is′ti·cal adj.
a′the·is′ti·cal·ly adv.

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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ yeah, i never really considered Sabbath satanic but they seem to be viewed by some as such. Now King Diamond and Coven? Yep.

Just goes to show that a lot of folks don't bother to do their research before they start criticizing things they don't like. 


That is unfortunately the case in just about everything these days. Sabbath actually had some seriously positive lyrics and really was more in the hippie love and peace realm. I guess lyrics such as "Pope on a rope" invoked a bit of wrath from Christians but once one really delves into the history of the Catholic Church, it doesn't take long to realize that THEY are the ultimate satanic cult of all.

I mean... I did mention I'm Catholic right? Lol. I definitely don't agree with you about Catholocism being Satanic, but the Church definitely has more than its fair share of horrible, sacrilegious decisions in its long history (the crusades anyone?). So criticism, especially of the Church's history, is fine by me, so long as its well reasoned.


I was raised Catholic but once i became a serious researcher of all things esoteric, all roads of evil lead to the Jesuits of the Vatican. That does not mean all Catholics are bad. Most are beautiful souls. What that means is that the hierarchy very much worships Lucifer and the fish god Dagon. It's a long, long story but if you want a simple reference. Just view the Vatican from above and it resembles a pregnant serpent giving birth to the anti-Christ. Christ consciousness has basically been hijacked by evil over the ensuing centuries. This is a huge field of study and one i can't elaborate much on here. Sorry for even bringing it up. I slipped! Last thing i want to do is insult somebody's beliefs :)

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I used to think the song "my god" was atheistic because of the line "you are the god of nothing if that's all you can see." Now, I'm not so sure. I've read that the album is really more anti organized religion than anti god itself. 

I also at times have thought Rush were atheists although that is also hard to prove. However, in the Rush documentary there is a shot of Alex reading a book called "god is not good."


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 24 2021 at 22:19
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ yeah, i never really considered Sabbath satanic but they seem to be viewed by some as such. Now King Diamond and Coven? Yep.

Just goes to show that a lot of folks don't bother to do their research before they start criticizing things they don't like. 


That is unfortunately the case in just about everything these days. Sabbath actually had some seriously positive lyrics and really was more in the hippie love and peace realm. I guess lyrics such as "Pope on a rope" invoked a bit of wrath from Christians but once one really delves into the history of the Catholic Church, it doesn't take long to realize that THEY are the ultimate satanic cult of all.

I mean... I did mention I'm Catholic right? Lol. I definitely don't agree with you about Catholocism being Satanic, but the Church definitely has more than its fair share of horrible, sacrilegious decisions in its long history (the crusades anyone?). So criticism, especially of the Church's history, is fine by me, so long as its well reasoned.


I was raised Catholic but once i became a serious researcher of all things esoteric, all roads of evil lead to the Jesuits of the Vatican. That does not mean all Catholics are bad. Most are beautiful souls. What that means is that the hierarchy very much worships Lucifer and the fish god Dagon. It's a long, long story but if you want a simple reference. Just view the Vatican from above and it resembles a pregnant serpent giving birth to the anti-Christ. Christ consciousness has basically been hijacked by evil over the ensuing centuries. This is a huge field of study and one i can't elaborate much on here. Sorry for even bringing it up. I slipped! Last thing i want to do is insult somebody's beliefs :)

Yeah I don't see a snake or anything, not sure where that comes from. Just looks like an ancient fortress wall surrounding a complex of buildings, the highlight being a rather large hybrid of a basilica plan and cross planned church with a wonderful baroque colonnade defining the piazza in front of it. I'm also a student of architecture in case that wasn't just made apparent, lol. Certainly I believe evil people have gotten to powerful positions in the Church in its history, and certainly there may be some there now. But I'm not willing to believe the whole Church has been under the control of actual Satanists for centuries. That sounds pretty far fetched to me.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I used to think the song "my god" was atheistic because of the line "you are the god of nothing if that's all you can see." Now, I'm not so sure. I've read that the album is really more anti organized religion than anti god itself. 

I also at times have thought Rush were atheists although that is also hard to prove. However, in the Rush documentary there is a shot of Alex reading a book called "god is not good."

I think Neil was an atheist. Agnostic at least. He definitely had a lot of qualms with organized religion in any capacity, and it's hard to find any lyric signaling that he might believe in anything greater than, say, love as a general human concept. Alex and Geddy I'm not so sure. I doubt they were unsympathetic to Neil's views (especially Ged who had to sing the lyrics), but I've never really heard any of their own thoughts on the matter. I wouldn't be surprised if it just didn't really matter to them. 
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism is the absence of such a belief. It doesn’t mean that one can’t be agnostic as well, and I suspect there are more agnostic atheists than there are atheists who completely reject the idea of the existence of a god or gods.

I am definitely an agnostic atheist. That is to say, I’m atheist in that I have no personal belief in the existence of a god or gods; but I’m agnostic in that the existence of a god or gods is ultimately unknowable.

It is possible, of course, also to be an agnostic theist, though I suspect this is a far rarer occurrence.

Being an atheist is simply another form of fundamentalism.
It really isn’t. Atheism, per se, is not the denial that a god or gods exist.

Dude. Atheism is EXACTLY the denial that a god or gods exist. That's its dictionary definition.

a·the·ism

 (ā′thē-ĭz′əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhēs- in Indo-European roots.]
a′the·ist n.
a′the·is′tic, a′the·is′ti·cal adj.
a′the·is′ti·cal·ly adv.



Yessss and no. Atheism has been described as a religion by idiots that have no idea of what atheism is. Amongst the people who claim to be atheists, some idiots have even created a chart of atheism that closely followed the 10 commanments (I believe that sect is based in Frisco). "Believing" or "Disbelieving" is simply not part of atheism, period.

AFAIAC, atheism cannot be described or defined, precisely because there is no standard of atheism.


.


Edited by Sean Trane - April 25 2021 at 04:07
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The above dictionary definition explicitly states “disbelief in OR denial of”, which in itself agrees with my statement that atheism, per se, is not the denial a god or gods exist. It’s also only one dictionary definition, and there are definitions outside dictionaries too. A literal translation/etymology of the word encompasses only the lack of belief, rather than denial. The meaning of atheism as denial of the existence of god or gods is a relatively modern one, and I would guess is still far less widespread than the more “conventional” definition.

Anecdotal, I know, but every atheist I know fits the disbelief rather than the denial. There are, of course, plenty of atheists out there who take the more strident denial route, and they are generally the more loudly spoken and more visible - but that doesn’t make them the majority.

Atheism is only the denial of the existence of a god or gods, if you choose that to be the case. Otherwise, it remains only the disbelief in the existence of a god or gods.
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Dogma!!!

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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Dogma!!!

I believe in Alanis.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The above dictionary definition explicitly states “disbelief in OR denial of”, which in itself agrees with my statement that atheism, per se, is not the denial a god or gods exist. It’s also only one dictionary definition, and there are definitions outside dictionaries too. A literal translation/etymology of the word encompasses only the lack of belief, rather than denial. The meaning of atheism as denial of the existence of god or gods is a relatively modern one, and I would guess is still far less widespread than the more “conventional” definition.

Anecdotal, I know, but every atheist I know fits the disbelief rather than the denial. There are, of course, plenty of atheists out there who take the more strident denial route, and they are generally the more loudly spoken and more visible - but that doesn’t make them the majority.

Atheism is only the denial of the existence of a god or gods, if you choose that to be the case. Otherwise, it remains only the disbelief in the existence of a god or gods.



Bla-bla-bla-blahhhhh....

You just don't get it , do you??Confused

How can one deny the existance of something that doesn't exist??

How can one disbelieve in something that doesn't exist??

Ying Yang







Edited by Sean Trane - April 25 2021 at 04:53
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The above dictionary definition explicitly states “disbelief in OR denial of”, which in itself agrees with my statement that atheism, per se, is not the denial a god or gods exist. It’s also only one dictionary definition, and there are definitions outside dictionaries too. A literal translation/etymology of the word encompasses only the lack of belief, rather than denial. The meaning of atheism as denial of the existence of god or gods is a relatively modern one, and I would guess is still far less widespread than the more “conventional” definition.

Anecdotal, I know, but every atheist I know fits the disbelief rather than the denial. There are, of course, plenty of atheists out there who take the more strident denial route, and they are generally the more loudly spoken and more visible - but that doesn’t make them the majority.

Atheism is only the denial of the existence of a god or gods, if you choose that to be the case. Otherwise, it remains only the disbelief in the existence of a god or gods.



Bla-bla-bla-blahhhhh....

You just don't get it , do you??Confused

How can one deny the existance of something that doesn't exist??

How can one disbelieve in something that doesn't exist??

Ying Yang


I think I do get it, and it is confusion in either language or semantics.

Whether or not something exists is actually quite irrelevant, as to whether or not someone believes it. There are many people out there who believe in things that don’t exist, and as many people out there who don’t believe in those things. Take any conspiracy theory for example. It’s immaterial whether or not there is any truth, some truth or no truth in the “facts” presented by the conspiracy theorists. Some people will believe, and some will not. Even if what they believe or disbelieve does not, in fact, exist.

As an agnostic (which most atheists are, even if they aren’t necessarily aware of that), I don’t believe anyone can say with any certainty whether or not a god or gods exist. There is currently no way to prove or disprove their existence. So therefore, whether or not a god or gods exist has no bearing on whether or not I believe.

But I’m an agnostic atheist, as opposed to an agnostic theist - and therefore I choose not to believe. You can bang your emoji head against the wall as much as you like, but there really is nothing odd not believing in something that (almost certainly) doesn’t exist.



Edited by nick_h_nz - April 25 2021 at 05:19
Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect
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