Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is 'Sgt. Pepper' overrated?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Is 'Sgt. Pepper' overrated?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 9>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2021 at 11:13
Originally posted by A Crimson Mellotron A Crimson Mellotron wrote:

I thought this old poll was forgotten!
Resurrecting forgotten polls seems overrated. LOL
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13064 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2021 at 11:16
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Let's answer this on two separate axes: the axis of legacy and influence and the axis of overall quality and listenability.  
...

Hi,

It's very sad to see that people, do not see or can relate to the incredible thing that the Beatles were at the time, and the most important part ... how different and far out the album was compared to all the crap available on radio and on LP at that time!

Today's folks, are making comments based on what they know, but without the historical fact, I doubt that a comment can stand up ... 

Hi Mosh, there's two possibilities here, either you did not read what I wrote, or you misunderstood what I wrote. If the latter, it is possible that I simply wasn't clear enough. So I'll restate: the album's influence (i.e. the way it changed music) is NOT overstated in anyway. I gave a reason and you also gave a reason about various barriers it broke, all is well! 

My point about it being overrated is only that, when compared to some other Beatles' records one to one without any consideration for its legacy or place in music, the tunes on albums like Abby Road and Revolver tend to hold up better in a lot of people's opinions (for the record, I prefer peppers to Revolver). While this was not always the case, due to the recorod's legacy, time has allowed fresh ears to make that listenability evaluation without the "baggage" of its historical context. 

So in sum, I am basically agreeing with you. But unlike, I have respect for the question and approach the answer systematically. I don't ask the mods to ban the discussion because my feelings are hurt... 
Don't worry, Stefan. The only thing overrated in this conversation is Mosh's opinion of himself. He also likes to insult everyone's intelligence on PA and then gets his panties in bunch when he gets called out on it.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18300 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2021 at 11:37
For me the weakest tracks on the album are "the benefit of mr. Kite" and "when I'm sixty four." After those my least favorites are probably "fixing a hole" and "Lucy in the sky with diamonds." There's really nothing weak on it though. Even "mr Kite" seems to have it's share of fans and while I admire the experimentation of that track I'm not really one of those fans. Some people probably don't care much for "within you without you" but I actually like that one especially the mystical lyrics. 
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17524 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2021 at 19:56
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...
My point about it being overrated is only that, when compared to some other Beatles' records one to one without any consideration for its legacy or place in music, the tunes on albums like Abby Road and Revolver tend to hold up better in a lot of people's opinions (for the record, I prefer peppers to Revolver). While this was not always the case, due to the record's legacy, time has allowed fresh ears to make that listenability evaluation without the "baggage" of its historical context. 
...
Hi,

I'm not sure that ANY ART is possible without the CONTEXT of its time and place ... one of the best examples, if you ever have a chance, is to pick up Hensen's HISTORY OF ART, and you will see an amazing connection with the time and place.

I don't think that "history" is all baggage as you say ... it is more often than not the fruit and wine of ALL the arts, and its impact is incredible and the 20th Century is probably the best example of that, although a lot of it has to be given credit to the media that was not available before.

To me, what you say is fine, but I kinda think that it's like comparing Beethoven's 1st to Beethoven's 9th ... and then all of a sudden it feels like (TO ME) that something is not right with that comparison!

Time, does ALLOW for some fresh ears and insights ... however, you still can not remove a Picasso (specially Guernica!) from the Spanish Civil War ... a youngster seeing the carnage right in front of his window.

The evaluation without the "baggage" for me, makes every thing be just another song, and then its content and context is ... so what? ... although you and I will agree that bringing out any "meaning" in Sgt Pepper's is kinda difficult for the most part, when compared to Abbey Road ... when the Beatles put together what might be considered their most complete and contextual album of all of them.

There is a level of interpretation here ... that "musicologists" (no other word for it!) have, and some comparisons tend to fall flat in favor of personal favoritism ... and when the music is better explained with the time and its place, it makes a lot more sense and has more value ... and this is the same for painting (see Jansen's book) and Literature ... and it is, FOR ME, very sad seeing a whole generation leave behind the "baggage" and history ... the part that gave the works ALL OF THEIR SOUL!


Edited by moshkito - March 01 2021 at 20:00
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
ssmarcus View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 05 2019
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 261 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2021 at 02:07
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


Don't worry, Stefan. The only thing overrated in this conversation is Mosh's opinion of himself. He also likes to insult everyone's intelligence on PA and then gets his panties in bunch when he gets called out on it.


LOLLOLLOL

Thanks for the empathy buddy! 
Back to Top
ssmarcus View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 05 2019
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 261 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2021 at 02:15
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...
My point about it being overrated is only that, when compared to some other Beatles' records one to one without any consideration for its legacy or place in music, the tunes on albums like Abby Road and Revolver tend to hold up better in a lot of people's opinions (for the record, I prefer peppers to Revolver). While this was not always the case, due to the record's legacy, time has allowed fresh ears to make that listenability evaluation without the "baggage" of its historical context. 
...
Hi,

I'm not sure that ANY ART is possible without the CONTEXT of its time and place ... one of the best examples, if you ever have a chance, is to pick up Hensen's HISTORY OF ART, and you will see an amazing connection with the time and place.

I don't think that "history" is all baggage as you say ... it is more often than not the fruit and wine of ALL the arts, and its impact is incredible and the 20th Century is probably the best example of that, although a lot of it has to be given credit to the media that was not available before.

To me, what you say is fine, but I kinda think that it's like comparing Beethoven's 1st to Beethoven's 9th ... and then all of a sudden it feels like (TO ME) that something is not right with that comparison!

Time, does ALLOW for some fresh ears and insights ... however, you still can not remove a Picasso (specially Guernica!) from the Spanish Civil War ... a youngster seeing the carnage right in front of his window.

The evaluation without the "baggage" for me, makes every thing be just another song, and then its content and context is ... so what? ... although you and I will agree that bringing out any "meaning" in Sgt Pepper's is kinda difficult for the most part, when compared to Abbey Road ... when the Beatles put together what might be considered their most complete and contextual album of all of them.

There is a level of interpretation here ... that "musicologists" (no other word for it!) have, and some comparisons tend to fall flat in favor of personal favoritism ... and when the music is better explained with the time and its place, it makes a lot more sense and has more value ... and this is the same for painting (see Jansen's book) and Literature ... and it is, FOR ME, very sad seeing a whole generation leave behind the "baggage" and history ... the part that gave the works ALL OF THEIR SOUL!

You actually make some good points when you're not trying to be a shmuck. 

"I don't think that "history" is all baggage as you say " - I agree that it isn't baggage in the negative sense. But it is something that is tacked on to the actual piece of art that is not the piece of art itself. Doesn't make it bad or less important, just categorically different than the art itself. And, in the case of The Beatles discography, today's listeners are, myself included, for better or worse, do not always have access to that allowing them a perspective on the album that based its valuation more squarely on the music. 

"and when the music is better explained with the time and its place, it makes a lot more sense and has more value" - For the record, I complete agree with this. It is largely because I spend time evaluating the musical context of the music I listen to that I have been able to broaden my musical horizons. But when we are evaluating whether something is "overrated" we need to differentiate by whom and how. And my analysis provides a way of considering how it may (or may not be) overrated...  
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17524 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2021 at 07:39
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...
But it is something that is tacked on to the actual piece of art that is not the piece of art itself. Doesn't make it bad or less important, just categorically different than the art itself. ...
Hi,

That would be really strange since it just about invalidates the psychedelic scene, that came alive in the late 60's. The worst side of it was the media making fun and money off it, and then calling it sleazy and dirty and ugly ... so the rest of the population that did not have TV's or Radios (at the time) would only hear the ugly comments ... more than half of America still thinks it was some dirty and ugly thing, and nothing else.

If you take, for examples, the famous CAFE's in Paris, where many artists met, they were not discussing the merits of some girl's ..... or the latest buzz on the newspaper, like some rich guy got caught .... but also how and what they felt about what they did ... and you will find a lot of this around the turn of the century ... and heck, we can even use the best/worst example ... from England in the attempt for the women to get votes and such 100 and more years ago. The media did not talk about that ... only about the fox hunts and ... the wrong fox'es too! But the amount of paintings, literature and music they helped create can not be denied ... a sense of individual freedom ... that as you say might not be part of the art, but if the freedom is not there, I'm not sure the art can survive as has been the case for hundreds of years and various churches even destroying and killing many writers, painters and musicians I bet!

It can only be "over rated" or "under rated" when looked from the outside and many years past ... and we "thinking" that it was all different than the art itself ... I don't think that Sir Paul would even answer that and probably laugh and leave the room ... and I saw many of them do just this as my friend was in a major radio station and the stories were ugly and then some!

The "categorically different" that you mention, for me, is somewhat of an apples and oranges discussion ... somehow it doesn't seem to come together for me since the elements are not aligned as they probably should and they are from different times and places.


Edited by moshkito - March 02 2021 at 07:39
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Progishness View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 10 2020
Location: Planet Rhubarb
Status: Offline
Points: 2565 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 06:50
The impact and influence of Sgt Pepper is incalculable.

'Nuff said.
"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:40
The impact and influence of Sgt Pepper is overrated......

'Nuff said.
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:47
For turning the recording studio virtually into an instrument in itself, the album's worth and influence is incalculable.
 
Now, enough said.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13064 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 11:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For turning the recording studio virtually into an instrument in itself, the album's worth and influence is incalculable.
 
Now, enough said.

What I find hilarious is that this thread has gone on for 6 pages about an album that was released 54 years ago -- and yet some people say it is overrated. LOL
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
Progishness View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 10 2020
Location: Planet Rhubarb
Status: Offline
Points: 2565 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 11:33
It's the equivalent of a movie forum still dissecting whether 'Citizen Kane' really deserves to be regarded as maybe the best film ever made.
"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2
Back to Top
Heart of the Matter View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 01 2020
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 3122 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 15:22
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


For turning the recording studio virtually into an instrument in itself, the album's worth and influence is incalculable.
 
Now, enough said.


That's the reason (Thanks, Steve) and the answer is... of course not, how could it be?
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 16:08
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For turning the recording studio virtually into an instrument in itself, the album's worth and influence is incalculable.
 
Now, enough said.

What I find hilarious is that this thread has gone on for 6 pages about an album that was released 54 years ago -- and yet some people say it is overrated. LOL

6 pages?? Come on Bro, that's pathetic....although for PA that's like an eternity, I take part of it back LOL
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13064 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2021 at 17:40
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For turning the recording studio virtually into an instrument in itself, the album's worth and influence is incalculable.
 
Now, enough said.

What I find hilarious is that this thread has gone on for 6 pages about an album that was released 54 years ago -- and yet some people say it is overrated. LOL

6 pages?? Come on Bro, that's pathetic....although for PA that's like an eternity, I take part of it back LOL

Jose' can you see? Sorry, bad pun, but you miss the irony found herein. It's not necessarily that this thread is 6 pages long, it is that the discussion regards an album from 54 years ago, and people are still arguing -- vehemently in spots -- the pros and cons of the album's merit. No one gives a damn about...oh, let's say... You're a Big Boy Now by The Lovin' Spoonful, Headquarters by The Monkees, or On Stage and In The Movies by Dionne Warwick -- each released the same month as Sgt. Peppers in 1967 -- because no one really cares about whether or not they are "rated" at all.

Only great and important albums get argued about more than a half century after their release. And based on the short term memory loss of PA, we'll see another thread on the same subject next year. Just like Yes v. Genesis polls. Tongue
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17524 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2021 at 09:51
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

It's the equivalent of a movie forum still dissecting whether 'Citizen Kane' really deserves to be regarded as maybe the best film ever made.

Hi,

.... a slight correction ... "maybe the best American film ever made."
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2021 at 22:53
In terms of influence, no, practically impossible to overrate Sgt Peppers.

Within the Beatles catalog, it is slightly overrated as it is not IMO as great as Revolver, White Album or Abbey Road but is often not only placed on par with those albums but even a little above. 
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:14
No one gives a f*ck.

Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:57
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No one gives a f*ck.

My hero...
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43718 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 12:02
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No one gives a f*ck.

LOL

it seems some people do give a ... because this thread keeps getting resurrected by every newbie LOL
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.234 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.