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King Crimson's little success?

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2020 at 17:53
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Also, I think next to Pink Floyd and Rush they are in my opinion(based on my online observations)the most respected prog band among the younger generation of prog fans(approximately 35 and under). 

I was quite surprised to see their debut being ranked at 6 on RateYourMusic's album chart with average score 4.31 (nearly 35 000 ratings). Also an album Red is rated very high - 4.22 (over 18 000 ratings) and Larks' Tongues in Aspic has an average score over 4. 




Red is generally acknowledged as one of the most influential albums of rock history.

Well, today it might be but I don't think it always was. Also, not more than ITCOTCK. However, I do think that after Curt Cobain name checked it a lot of people got on the "Red" bandwagon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2020 at 20:09
There was also something about Fripp always dissolving, or completely changing the line-up, whenever the band was about to break into commercial success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 01:51
Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Why is King Crimson the least successful out of greatest classic prog bands? Prog albums by Yes, Rush, Genesis, Tull and ELP sold better than Crimson. Only an album ITCOTCK is certified Gold in both the US and UK.
Does it mean that those bands have a wider appeal to music fans than KC and if so, why?




To add to what others have mentioned, commercial success is about creating a juggernaut.  About making a brand out of the band's music.  A brand means a certain amount of predictability and accessibility.  Fripp was not particularly interested in either.  He was not interested in limiting himself either to an image or to a record label notion of what would sell.  This obviously extracted a price in terms of how successful a particular album could be but on the other hand, he has, over a period of time and with the contributions of his very able fellow musicians, created a catalogue of albums that cater to a wide range of tastes (within prog) and are widely respected and sought after within the prog community even today. 

Fripp would perhaps envy what Rush achieved to some extent (I doubt it, because his only concern was satisfying himself rather than the audience).  They didn't dumb down for mass appeal but walked the fine line between accessibility and complexity and kept selling out stadiums.  Like Pink Floyd, they showed there is a certain approach that CAN be followed to maintain your integrity and still create something that appeals to a lot of people.  But Fripp decided early on that he would go in the direction that compelled him and if the audience wouldn't go along, so be it.  Somewhat like Wilson's solo albums, he has been content with a modest level of success that makes the venture viable without blowing up the band to the big time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 02:15
For the same reason as Gentle Giant , they didn't have a 'style'. It was more a project. However I'm sure I remember Fripp saying that when they split they were on the verge of being one of the most successful bands in Europe. I know that people often pick me up on my memory of 'facts' but I'm fairly sure he said something like that. 
ELP and Yes were immensely popular with the teenage crowd in the seventies and that partly accounted for their initial commercial success . Crimson were so very 'dark' and obtuse musically. No compromises so they probably needed a more critical mature audience. ELP and Yes could still come up with a good tune amongst all the instrumental hi-jinks and had wider appeal as did Floyd and Tull.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 06:25
Fripp would seem to have more than a little in common with Frank Zappa....dedication to their craft/art, disdain for the recording industry, mercurial management of their bands, and lack of interest in getting the "hit single." 

In Fripp's case, I wonder if he didn't understand why popular audiences seemed to shun him?  His original "Giles, Giles & Fripp" even lampooned that possibility!*

It's not for lack of trying....Fripp's guitar work on Bowie's "Heroes" is lauded as one of the signature sounds of the era, and that song certainly remains very popular.  

The man is truly an enigma.  He pivots from humor, to avant-garde, to punk rock/new wave, & back again!   He's the closest thing we have to a "national treasure" of prog!  

*Giles, Giles and Fripp stand poised to grasp the pinnacle of success - yea, the acme of achievement - to bask in the sunshine of of mass-adulation and thrill to the ecstasy of millions.  Or else to plummet into unplumbed depths of ignominy, unloved, unheeded and poor.  Giles, Giles and Fripp stand poised.  LOL


Edited by cstack3 - March 30 2020 at 06:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 07:33
Apart from the music, Yes and ELP were far more show-guys than KC. OK, I wasn't around in the early seventies, but I don't think KC ever had a reputation for their shows as "events" that were about more than the music. ELP, Yes, also Genesis and Jethro Tull had much more of a reputation to put up something special on stage, not just the music. Also Pink Floyd with their light shows. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 07:39
Because they never made a pop song. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 08:21
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

In terms of comercial sales, yes, they were less successful, but in terms of influence, the story is quite different. They've inspired many artists and bands for 5 decades now, and are still going strong, which we cannot say about geneisis, ELP, or even Yes. 

I would actually say that Genesis inspired the whole neo-prog movement, which is more influential than anything KC spawned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 08:29
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Also, I think next to Pink Floyd and Rush they are in my opinion(based on my online observations)the most respected prog band among the younger generation of prog fans(approximately 35 and under). 

I was quite surprised to see their debut being ranked at 6 on RateYourMusic's album chart with average score 4.31 (nearly 35 000 ratings). Also an album Red is rated very high - 4.22 (over 18 000 ratings) and Larks' Tongues in Aspic has an average score over 4. 




Red is generally acknowledged as one of the most influential albums of rock history.

Interesting that, although being a prog fan for 50 years, I'd never heard of Red until I joined this site.
I later found it in the vast collection of prog rock albums I inherited, listened to it a few times and sold it with all the other albums that I didn't find worthy. I just don't see what the fuss is about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 10:53
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Also, I think next to Pink Floyd and Rush they are in my opinion(based on my online observations)the most respected prog band among the younger generation of prog fans(approximately 35 and under). 

I was quite surprised to see their debut being ranked at 6 on RateYourMusic's album chart with average score 4.31 (nearly 35 000 ratings). Also an album Red is rated very high - 4.22 (over 18 000 ratings) and Larks' Tongues in Aspic has an average score over 4. 




Red is generally acknowledged as one of the most influential albums of rock history.

Interesting that, although being a prog fan for 50 years, I'd never heard of Red until I joined this site.
I later found it in the vast collection of prog rock albums I inherited, listened to it a few times and sold it with all the other albums that I didn't find worthy. I just don't see what the fuss is about.
I don't remember the first time I heard Red, probably in early 90's when I was trying to get KC, like I said it took me years to get them. In the Court was an album I had from the late 70's, I don't recall spinning it much though.

Still Red is an album I play often but I too don't see the huge fuss about it, I do enjoy it because it flows so much better than most. I think albums like Poseidon and Lizard is what make people go "WTH, this has nothing, its mish mash music", compared to later releases. Had Red come 3yrs earlier KC might have had larger success than what they did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:16
I think this argument that they were on the verge of mass success several times only to splinter only holds water for the start of their career, when, without McDonald, they lost that commercial link.  After that, even with some accolades for the Lark thru Red period, the audience didn't really grow.  They attained further acclaim through 3 albums in the 1980s but the audience wasn't huge even then, especially compared to, I don't know, say the Talking Heads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:32
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Also, I think next to Pink Floyd and Rush they are in my opinion(based on my online observations)the most respected prog band among the younger generation of prog fans(approximately 35 and under). 

I was quite surprised to see their debut being ranked at 6 on RateYourMusic's album chart with average score 4.31 (nearly 35 000 ratings). Also an album Red is rated very high - 4.22 (over 18 000 ratings) and Larks' Tongues in Aspic has an average score over 4. 




Red is generally acknowledged as one of the most influential albums of rock history.

Interesting that, although being a prog fan for 50 years, I'd never heard of Red until I joined this site.
I later found it in the vast collection of prog rock albums I inherited, listened to it a few times and sold it with all the other albums that I didn't find worthy. I just don't see what the fuss is about.
I don't remember the first time I heard Red, probably in early 90's when I was trying to get KC, like I said it took me years to get them. In the Court was an album I had from the late 70's, I don't recall spinning it much though.

Still Red is an album I play often but I too don't see the huge fuss about it, I do enjoy it because it flows so much better than most. I think albums like Poseidon and Lizard is what make people go "WTH, this has nothing, its mish mash music", compared to later releases. Had Red come 3yrs earlier KC might have had larger success than what they did.

I first became aware of Crimson quite early, about 1978 at a friends birthday when he played the compilation The Young Person’s Guide. I fell in love with them,  but fully understand that they are, quite clearly, a wee bit of an acquired taste.

Weston always complained that the band were on the cusp of something big when Fripp pulled that version of the band for his first hiatus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TexasKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:35
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


Fripp would perhaps envy what Rush achieved to some extent (I doubt it, because his only concern was satisfying himself rather than the audience).  They didn't dumb down for mass appeal but walked the fine line between accessibility and complexity and kept selling out stadiums.  

Rush were selling out stadiums? Really? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Because they never made a pop song. Wink
yeah, apart from "I Talk to the Wind", "Book of Saturday", "Epitaph", "Matte Kudasai", "Exiles", "One Time", "Walking on Air"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:40
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

more influential than anything KC spawned.
Tool and Primus are directly influenced by KC, and they both in return influenced thousands of bands, prog ones and beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 11:50
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I think this argument that they were on the verge of mass success several times only to splinter only holds water for the start of their career, when, without McDonald, they lost that commercial link.  After that, even with some accolades for the Lark thru Red period, the audience didn't really grow.  They attained further acclaim through 3 albums in the 1980s but the audience wasn't huge even then, especially compared to, I don't know, say the Talking Heads.

It's hard to locate audience numbers for the early shows, finding a list of venues is easy but not attendance numbers. Most of what I see thru the early 70's is halls and clubs, what I want to see is do the numbers grow as the years go on or are they stagnant, not looking at festivals either. Did they ever have a pattern of playing arenas with say 12-20K attendees, or was it always 3-8K or so.

I still say their music style was not accessible enough to garner huge fame like Tull had in that 70's period and they did not grow in the 80's to compete with say Yes, Rush or Talking Heads. For what we know about KC, it makes sense why they were never going to be huge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 13:48
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Because they never made a pop song. Wink
yeah, apart from "I Talk to the Wind", "Book of Saturday", "Epitaph", "Matte Kudasai", "Exiles", "One Time", "Walking on Air"...

and the Night Watch!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 13:54
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

There was also something about Fripp always dissolving, or completely changing the line-up, whenever the band was about to break into commercial success.

Yeah, interesting, like he was intentionally trying to avoid the big-time .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 14:34
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

There was also something about Fripp always dissolving, or completely changing the line-up, whenever the band was about to break into commercial success.

Yeah, interesting, like he was intentionally trying to avoid the big-time .


I once read Fripp say that in so many words. He said that the first album was the only one that was threatened by commercial success. I'm not sure why he was afraid of the band becoming commercial except that maybe he felt that it somehow meant he would have play more poppy sounding music or something. Can you imagine if Pink Floyd broke up just before Dark Side of the Moon? They would now be about as well known as King Crimson. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2020 at 18:10
I'm not that much into their music, but I really like an album like Larks' Tongues in Aspic which I copied to a cassette tape (!) many years ago. It's an amazing piece of music, but probably as far away from the pop formula as you can possibly get within the frame of rock music. So it won't appeal to a bigger audience. I like Red too. I also copied In the Wake of Poseidon to the same cassette tape, but I don't remember listening to it more than once. Perhaps that says something about my enthusiasm about the album, but maybe I should give it another go?

I bought Discipline a couple of years ago I think (knowing some of the songs beforehand). While I do like it and find it an interesting album overall, I think something is somehow missing. Some intensity perhaps. It is sounds rather distanced to my ears and perhaps too "controlled". So it is hard for me to truely connect with it. Unlike f.e. Talking Heads which I can see have been brought up. Their music also has a very intellectual vibe, but it is less "perfect", and has more energy, and perhaps it is also more driven by emotion. But again, that is just my experience.


Edited by The Anders - March 30 2020 at 18:23
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