Why do I like King Crimson much less?

As far as KC being cold and clinical, I always found that to be a part of their charm.

SteveG wrote: As far as KC being cold and clinical, I always found that to be a part of their charm.

Indeed it's part of their charm... in the songs that are cold and clinical... and the emotional factor is part of their charm in their warmest and more emotional songs.

Dellinger wrote: kenethlevine wrote: Dellinger wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: There is a fundamental lack of feeling, a mathematical sterility, that encompassed their music, and became more pronounced after their first few albums. It is a music of numbers and calculation, with very little warmth.  Once again the lack of feeling on King Crimson... I just don't buy it. Well, perhaps they do have a fair amount of mathematical sterility, but they also have some of the most emotional songs I can think of, prog or not. Of course, the best example of this is Epitaph, with those vocals from Lake that, well, I would find it hard to think of a more emotional vocal delivery anywhere. But besides, I can easily think of Prince Rupert Awakes / Bolero, Exiles, and Starless having some really beautiful emotional moments. but you are naming the most accessible and perhaps warmest songs from those post ITCOCK albums.  They stuck one or two of them on Lizard and Islands and then at best one each on LTIA,SABB and Red.  so you are corroborating what the Dark Elf is saying by naming the exceptions which prove the rule ps I'd throw "The Night Watch" into that list as well, but that's about it OK then, perhaps not as emotional as the once I already mentioned, but also warm and melodic, we also have Court of the Crimson King, I talk to the wind, the vocal part of Moonchild, In the Wake of Poseidon, I talk to the Wind, Cadence and Cascade, Lady of the Dancing Water, and perhaps even Islands, plus one or two from after the 70's... It may not be a very big amount among their other songs, but you could easily fit a wonderful compilation album of such songs.

The thing about KC's more emotional and somewhat warmer songs, particularly the epics like Epitaph and In The Wake Of Poseidon, is that the icy mellotron adds a wonderful freeze factor to the songs that keeps them from turning into sentimental mush. This is what I love most about the early KC material. 

SteveG wrote: Dellinger wrote: kenethlevine wrote: Dellinger wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: There is a fundamental lack of feeling, a mathematical sterility, that encompassed their music, and became more pronounced after their first few albums. It is a music of numbers and calculation, with very little warmth.  Once again the lack of feeling on King Crimson... I just don't buy it. Well, perhaps they do have a fair amount of mathematical sterility, but they also have some of the most emotional songs I can think of, prog or not. Of course, the best example of this is Epitaph, with those vocals from Lake that, well, I would find it hard to think of a more emotional vocal delivery anywhere. But besides, I can easily think of Prince Rupert Awakes / Bolero, Exiles, and Starless having some really beautiful emotional moments. but you are naming the most accessible and perhaps warmest songs from those post ITCOCK albums.  They stuck one or two of them on Lizard and Islands and then at best one each on LTIA,SABB and Red.  so you are corroborating what the Dark Elf is saying by naming the exceptions which prove the rule ps I'd throw "The Night Watch" into that list as well, but that's about it OK then, perhaps not as emotional as the once I already mentioned, but also warm and melodic, we also have Court of the Crimson King, I talk to the wind, the vocal part of Moonchild, In the Wake of Poseidon, I talk to the Wind, Cadence and Cascade, Lady of the Dancing Water, and perhaps even Islands, plus one or two from after the 70's... It may not be a very big amount among their other songs, but you could easily fit a wonderful compilation album of such songs. The thing about KC's more emotional and somewhat warmer songs, particularly the epics like Epitaph and In The Wake Of Poseidon, is that the icy mellotron adds a wonderful freeze factor to the songs that keeps them from turning into sentimental mush. This is what I love most about the early KC material.

I don't really understand considering the Mellotron giving a cold aspect to the songs... on the contrary, I would think it's warm and emotional too (though it might give them a bit of an eerie atmosphere). But indeed they do not end up feeling line a sentimental mush. Now, that cold thing you say about the mellotron, the one band that comes to my mind is Anekdoten (with the album I know from them, "Until all the Ghosts are gone").

^ Agreed, and isn't it ironic that the audio artifacts and mechanical artificiality of the sound is what VST plug in manufacturers are striving to replicate via incredibly complex software algorithms? (Can't be dissimilar to coding a speech impediment into an otherwise 'perfect' talking robot) I think Fripp said 'tuning a Mellotron doesent'

I find it amazing how thoroughly one can enjoy some of KC's music and be left very cold by some of the rest. Even on their most well liked albums there seems to be a Moonchild or a Providence stuck in-between the stuff most everyone loves (not saying I don't like those tracks). I think what draws in their biggest fans after a while isn't so much the music they can expect to hear on a KC album, but rather the music they don't expect to hear. Some factor of being a huge KC fan to me seems to be a thirst for the unusual and perhaps initially unwanted changes from song to song and album to album. To me they seem a far harder nut to crack than some no less great, classic prog groups such as Genesis, Yes, or Rush. Somehow the variety and extremity of KC's music is always an essential ingredient, whereas even fundamental things like strong melodies and clear structures can get tossed to the side from time to time. For me KC is often more fascinating than they are moving, whereas with most other groups I know the moving part is more important. 

Slartibartfast wrote: To answer your question, I am thinking because you are doo doo head

 In my part of the country we say poopie head!

Dellinger wrote: SteveG wrote: Dellinger wrote: SteveG wrote: Dellinger wrote: kenethlevine wrote: Dellinger wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: There is a fundamental lack of feeling, a mathematical sterility, that encompassed their music, and became more pronounced after their first few albums. It is a music of numbers and calculation, with very little warmth.  Once again the lack of feeling on King Crimson... I just don't buy it. Well, perhaps they do have a fair amount of mathematical sterility, but they also have some of the most emotional songs I can think of, prog or not. Of course, the best example of this is Epitaph, with those vocals from Lake that, well, I would find it hard to think of a more emotional vocal delivery anywhere. But besides, I can easily think of Prince Rupert Awakes / Bolero, Exiles, and Starless having some really beautiful emotional moments. but you are naming the most accessible and perhaps warmest songs from those post ITCOCK albums.  They stuck one or two of them on Lizard and Islands and then at best one each on LTIA,SABB and Red.  so you are corroborating what the Dark Elf is saying by naming the exceptions which prove the rule ps I'd throw "The Night Watch" into that list as well, but that's about it OK then, perhaps not as emotional as the once I already mentioned, but also warm and melodic, we also have Court of the Crimson King, I talk to the wind, the vocal part of Moonchild, In the Wake of Poseidon, I talk to the Wind, Cadence and Cascade, Lady of the Dancing Water, and perhaps even Islands, plus one or two from after the 70's... It may not be a very big amount among their other songs, but you could easily fit a wonderful compilation album of such songs. The thing about KC's more emotional and somewhat warmer songs, particularly the epics like Epitaph and In The Wake Of Poseidon, is that the icy mellotron adds a wonderful freeze factor to the songs that keeps them from turning into sentimental mush. This is what I love most about the early KC material.  I don't really understand considering the Mellotron giving a cold aspect to the songs... on the contrary, I would think it's warm and emotional too (though it might give them a bit of an eerie atmosphere). But indeed they do not end up feeling line a sentimental mush. Now, that cold thing you say about the mellotron, the one band that comes to my mind is Anekdoten (with the album I know from them, "Until all the Ghosts are gone"). The hardest thing to replicate for most musicians, at least in my experience, is the cold clinical sound of the mellotron with synths. The best guess for this is the fact that the sampling tapes stretch over time, the actual electronics of the tape player and speakers sound clinical, and as Robert Fripp has so eloquently said: "A mellotron is never in tune."  OK, perhaps I need some explanation to understand what you mean by clinical. To me that sounds like something very perfect, very well studied and performed with great precision. Yet the Mellotron seems to be the exact opposite, since you yourself said it's never in tune, and as far as I understand, it's unpredictable and so on.

I suppose it comes down one's acuity for hearing this type of sound. The consensus is that the mellotron has a cold icy sound that lacks the warmth of the instruments that have been sampled, particularly strings. Of this I heartily agree. As I recording engineer, with a more developed ear, this is readily apparent to me.

Edited by SteveG - January 08 2020 at 04:26

Ok, lets scrap the word clinical and just say cold and lacking warmth to describe the mellotron. As far as KC's music sounding clinical, a lot of that has to do with how it was recorded and mastered. There's not a lot of warmth in early KC recordings, particularly on ItCotKC.