God

^ No, the music you listen to does not effect your intelligence or religion believe it or not.

Vompatti wrote: ^ Are you implying that the majority of PA members are r*tards?

CosmicVibration wrote: It doesn’t matter if someone believes in Eternal Ever-New Joy or not.  Eventually, everyone will bask in it, it’s inevitable.

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 02 2019 at 11:36

CosmicVibration wrote: It doesn’t matter if someone believes in Eternal Ever-New Joy or not. Eventually, everyone will bask in it, it’s inevitable.

Except for those who don’t believe or have not been baptised or born again or have not confessed their latest sins in time or are not Jehovah’s Witnesses or have committed suicide or are witches or ... I can’t keep track.





Edited by HackettFan - December 08 2019 at 00:00

I consider myself to be both an agnostic and an atheist.

I'm agnostic because Gnosticism deals with knowledge (having knowledge), and I don't "know" if a God does or doesn't exist, but also an atheist because I lack belief in a god or gods. I'm not convinced that a god or gods exist. That said, there are times that I lean more towards theism than others even when I don't think it really rationally grounded. Like with the X-Files, I kind of want to believe, but some conception of a Godlike entity I would rather believe in than others (and some conceptions seem less nonsensical than others). For some the idea of God is well-defined, for others it's a really nebulous concept. Some claim it's nature, well I'll continue calling nature nature. Some say it supernatural, beyond nature somehow, or outside of space-time or at least our local universe (if getting into multiverse models). To some it's an ET and God drives a flying saucer. I've been fascinated by the Heaven's Gate Cult, and have spent much time listening to Do (Marshall Applewhite as the "vehicle" he commandeered was called) and the followers. That was tragic, especially for the families. The website still exists, please don't believe in it. http://www.heavensgate.com/ I feel a connection with the followers, and long for a strong community, just not one that throws reason to the wind and ends up committing mass suicide. Religion can provide comfort and a sense of community, but I'd prefer "religion" that doesn't require belief in a God or Gods or expect one to uncritically accept dogma. When my child went to a religious school, she was ostracised or criticised it would be better to say for questioning (at least one of them was). She did bring out the old "If God was required to create the universe who created God?" To which the teacher gave some reason, to which she said something like, "Why should we believe that, what is your evidence?" The teacher complained, but I was proud (even if that's a sin). Mind you, while I never told her what to believe, I had discussed these concepts with her before -- there was some inculcation from me.
   
That said, despite being reasonable sceptical, under the right circumstances I could imagine falling into a cult. "Planet Earth about to be recycled. Your only chance to evacuate is to leave with us."

I guess others have seen Dawkins scale of belief, on a scale of one to ten, 1 might be, in my own words, I have complete confidence that there is a God (or gods), and 10, I have complete confidence that there is no God (or gods), right now I'd put myself at about an 8. He framed it specifically in terms of knowledge rather than confidence, at least when I read it, but such framing can present problems despite epistemology (theory of knowledge) dealing with the rationality of belief.. While there is the concept of a spectrum of theistic probability, defining probability for such a thing is problematic.

God seems an unfalsifiable proposition (from a scientific standpoint at least), although I have heard at least one Christian apologist claim otherwise.

Some have claimed that I cannot call myself an atheist because I lack confidence that God does not exist -- I lack absolute confidence in all things (am ultimately agnostic). Partially that's just a question of semantics. Atheim of course means without theism, but there is little theist inside me, which can cause some cognitive dissonance, and I'm comfortable calling myself a soft atheist, also known as negative atheist and weak atheist. I lack belief in deities, but I don;t claim that deities don;t exist. Some invoke the need for faith (and by faith I mean in a so-called "spiritual" sense, not faith that my wife isn't cheating on me, I don't believe she is, and find good reason not to believe it, but I wouldn't claim absolute certainty), but for me the default position is lacking belief in that which I have not been convinced of (and of course that that I am unaware of). I can imagine scenarios where I might be convinced that God exists, to be convinced does not require certainty, but whether or not I would be willing to, would or could sincerely worship It is another matter.

Logan wrote: I consider myself to be both an agnostic and an atheist. I'm agnostic because Gnosticism deals with knowledge (having knowledge), and I don't "know" if a God does or doesn't exist, but also an atheist because I lack belief in a god or gods. I'm not convinced that a god or gods exist. That said, there are times that I lean more towards theism than others even when I don't think it really rationally grounded. Like with the X-Files, I kind of want to believe, but some conception of a Godlike entity I would rather believe in than others (and some conceptions seem less nonsensical than others). For some the idea of God is well-defined, for others it's a really nebulous concept. Some claim it's nature, well I'll continue calling nature nature. Some say it supernatural, beyond nature somehow, or outside of space-time or at least our local universe (if getting into multiverse models). To some it's an ET and God drives a flying saucer. I've been fascinated by the Heaven's Gate Cult, and have spent much time listening to Do (Marshall Applewhite as the "vehicle" he commandeered was called) and the followers. That was tragic, especially for the families. The website still exists, please don't believe in it. http://www.heavensgate.com/ I feel a connection with the followers, and long for a strong community, just not one that throws reason to the wind and ends up committing mass suicide. Religion can provide comfort and a sense of community, but I'd prefer "religion" that doesn't require belief in a God or Gods or expect one to uncritically accept dogma. When my child went to a religious school, she was ostracised or criticised it would be better to say for questioning (at least one of them was). She did bring out the old "If God was required to create the universe who created God?" To which the teacher gave some reason, to which she said something like, "Why should we believe that, what is your evidence?" The teacher complained, but I was proud (even if that's a sin). Mind you, while I never told her what to believe, I had discussed these concepts with her before -- there was some inculcation from me.     That said, despite being reasonable sceptical, under the right circumstances I could imagine falling into a cult. "Planet Earth about to be recycled. Your only chance to evacuate is to leave with us." I guess others have seen Dawkins scale of belief, on a scale of one to ten, 1 might be, in my own words, I have complete confidence that there is a God (or gods), and 10, I have complete confidence that there is no God (or gods), right now I'd put myself at about an 8. He framed it specifically in terms of knowledge rather than confidence, at least when I read it, but such framing can present problems despite epistemology (theory of knowledge) dealing with the rationality of belief.. While there is the concept of a spectrum of theistic probability, defining probability for such a thing is problematic. God seems an unfalsifiable proposition (from a scientific standpoint at least), although I have heard at least one Christian apologist claim otherwise. Some have claimed that I cannot call myself an atheist because I lack confidence that God does not exist -- I lack absolute confidence in all things (am ultimately agnostic). Partially that's just a question of semantics. Atheim of course means without theism, but there is little theist inside me, which can cause some cognitive dissonance, and I'm comfortable calling myself a soft atheist, also known as negative atheist and weak atheist. I lack belief in deities, but I don;t claim that deities don;t exist. Some invoke the need for faith (and by faith I mean in a so-called "spiritual" sense, not faith that my wife isn't cheating on me, I don't believe she is, and find good reason not to believe it, but I wouldn't claim absolute certainty), but for me the default position is lacking belief in that which I have not been convinced of (and of course that that I am unaware of). I can imagine scenarios where I might be convinced that God exists, to be convinced does not require certainty, but whether or not I would be willing to, would or could sincerely worship It is another matter.

Logan wrote: I consider myself to be both an agnostic and an atheist. I'm agnostic because Gnosticism deals with knowledge (having knowledge), and I don't "know" if a God does or doesn't exist, but also an atheist because I lack belief in a god or gods. I'm not convinced that a god or gods exist. That said, there are times that I lean more towards theism than others even when I don't think it really rationally grounded. Like with the X-Files, I kind of want to believe, but some conception of a Godlike entity I would rather believe in than others (and some conceptions seem less nonsensical than others). For some the idea of God is well-defined, for others it's a really nebulous concept. Some claim it's nature, well I'll continue calling nature nature. Some say it supernatural, beyond nature somehow, or outside of space-time or at least our local universe (if getting into multiverse models). To some it's an ET and God drives a flying saucer. I've been fascinated by the Heaven's Gate Cult, and have spent much time listening to Do (Marshall Applewhite as the "vehicle" he commandeered was called) and the followers. That was tragic, especially for the families. The website still exists, please don't believe in it. http://www.heavensgate.com/ I feel a connection with the followers, and long for a strong community, just not one that throws reason to the wind and ends up committing mass suicide. Religion can provide comfort and a sense of community, but I'd prefer "religion" that doesn't require belief in a God or Gods or expect one to uncritically accept dogma. When my child went to a religious school, she was ostracised or criticised it would be better to say for questioning (at least one of them was). She did bring out the old "If God was required to create the universe who created God?" To which the teacher gave some reason, to which she said something like, "Why should we believe that, what is your evidence?" The teacher complained, but I was proud (even if that's a sin). Mind you, while I never told her what to believe, I had discussed these concepts with her before -- there was some inculcation from me.     That said, despite being reasonable sceptical, under the right circumstances I could imagine falling into a cult. "Planet Earth about to be recycled. Your only chance to evacuate is to leave with us." I guess others have seen Dawkins scale of belief, on a scale of one to ten, 1 might be, in my own words, I have complete confidence that there is a God (or gods), and 10, I have complete confidence that there is no God (or gods), right now I'd put myself at about an 8. He framed it specifically in terms of knowledge rather than confidence, at least when I read it, but such framing can present problems despite epistemology (theory of knowledge) dealing with the rationality of belief.. While there is the concept of a spectrum of theistic probability, defining probability for such a thing is problematic. God seems an unfalsifiable proposition (from a scientific standpoint at least), although I have heard at least one Christian apologist claim otherwise. Some have claimed that I cannot call myself an atheist because I lack confidence that God does not exist -- I lack absolute confidence in all things (am ultimately agnostic). Partially that's just a question of semantics. Atheim of course means without theism, but there is little theist inside me, which can cause some cognitive dissonance, and I'm comfortable calling myself a soft atheist, also known as negative atheist and weak atheist. I lack belief in deities, but I don;t claim that deities don;t exist. Some invoke the need for faith (and by faith I mean in a so-called "spiritual" sense, not faith that my wife isn't cheating on me, I don't believe she is, and find good reason not to believe it, but I wouldn't claim absolute certainty), but for me the default position is lacking belief in that which I have not been convinced of (and of course that that I am unaware of). I can imagine scenarios where I might be convinced that God exists, to be convinced does not require certainty, but whether or not I would be willing to, would or could sincerely worship It is another matter.

I had wanted to make a copious response, but this time of the semester I am still grading final essays and I can only do what is possible within limited break periods. I’m largely like-minded with you, although I would assign a larger probability to the proposition that God does not exist. Here is a blog discussion by Dr. Richard Carrier concerning the use of atheist versus agnostic that I think you might find amenable [Link corrected]:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16076




Edited by HackettFan - December 16 2019 at 20:25

HackettFan wrote: Cosmic Vibration wrote: HackettFan wrote: Cosmic Vibration wrote: It doesn’t matter if someone believes in Eternal Ever-New Joy or not. Eventually, everyone will bask in it, it’s inevitable. Except for those who don’t believe or have not been baptised or born again or have not confessed their latest sins in time or are not Jehovah’s Witnesses or have committed suicide or are witches or ... I can’t keep track. Metaphor soup sprinkled with a little symbolism as spice. To get to the highest of the heavenly realms and beyond, one must commit suicide and be born again. Don’t misconstrued, it’s related to the ego and not the body. Or except for those who don’t commit suicide [related to the ego] and be born again. Not so inevitable, then. Oh well. I like the soup recipe.

Wow, someone really doesn’t seem to like Jordan Peterson.  I never read or heard anything by Mr. Peterson so I can’t comment.  Richard Carrier may be right, I don’t know.

It seems that everyone wants to belong to something.  For spiritual evolution it may be helpful to belong to a group but it could also be detrimental, depending on the vibration of that group.  Ultimately though, realization comes in isolation.