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I cannot stand Gentle Giant
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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Personally i loooooooove Gentle Giant. One of the most talented and enjoyable bands in all of music history. Probably a top 10 band if i were to make such lists. Favorite album: ALL (well up to Interview and then i like but don't love everything else after except Civilian. That sucked.)

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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Well I apologize in advance to gentle giant fans...

I’ve
really tried with these guys but I’m just not hearing what everyone
else is. The only song that doesn’t give me a headache is proclamation.
When I’m listening I realize their music is very unique but overall I
just think... it’s bad. I’ve listened to power and the glory, octopus
and in a glass house and free hand all a couple times now and I just
can’t get into it. I can usually get into most prog, I hated van der
graaf on first listen but now that’s a favorite, but with them I feel
there is plenty of movement in their songs, with gentle giant I feel
like they play 2 riffs a song and then do some uncomfortable vocal
harmonies. I think so sincere may be one of the worst songs I’ve ever
heard.

I am really having a problem with understanding
why these vocal harmonies feel "uncomfortable" to you. I could
understand if someone said he does not like that kind of singing, but
"uncomfortable"? do you mean to imply that there is, from a
musicological point of view, something "wrong" with these harmonies,
like for example using intervals that should not be sung at the same
time?


If you ask me, and you haven't, but I can't help myself, it's choppiness of the notes. There is a lot of melody with a paucity of notes being emphasized through sustain. Very little variety in note length. This is similarly true of vocals and every instrument they play. Now once a harmony enters, they may be different pitches, but it also tends to be constructed of the same short choppy notes. The base lines also tend to play up the short choppy notes of the top line melodies. There's no reprieve and it's simply bad inartful orchestration to my mind. This is far removed from the wonderful variation in note durations one gets from Univers Zero, a RIO/Avant band that is nothing like Gentle Giant. They like to layer things too, yet they may have one instrument playing something rapid while another is playing something slower until it evolves into something else.
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=120644

Ty
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It's a shame ... if anything within the first 5 or 6 GG albums, is a bunch of facts that you will never give attention to or some credit for their inventiveness.

1. Gary Green has been on record, specifying that in the early days, they never wrote anything down ... they just played. So the next time you listen, recognize that this is NOT ABOUT A SONG, but whatever comes out in the music ... similar to Gayle Ebbett specifying in his band that they might start with an A or a B, but will likely end up with a X, or Z ... which means, in case you don't know, that this is about the feel and the sound of the music ... not what you want ... you want hits ... GG is not for you, and many of us here will probably say bad things like ... good riddance! I would rather try to explain this for you, if you have the ears for it, but the music is throwing you off already ... and I doubt that any of our words will help!

2. The incredible musicianship of each member of the band, ought to at the very least, allow you an inch or two of ... yeah ... that's really good and tight ... and they were better in concert, even though most of the videos if it all have sync issues, and sound awful ... which doesn't help the band a whole lot. The show I got to see, their encore was 25 to 30 minutes long, and in that time all 6 band members played all instruments ... all 6 played drums, bass, guitar ... you name it ... so, when it comes to musicianship, I seriously doubt many bands can even stand up to the socks in these guys.

3. I have my doubts that you have actually listened to GG ... you played a few seconds, it didn't click and you tried another spot, same thing, and you decided it's not for you. You will NEVER, EVER, get an appreciation for a lot of the music in the 20th century, almost all of which was anti-melody and used a broken down orchestra (that too, but it means different combinations, not the usual!) to create different moods and ideas in music ... witness BERNARD HERRMAN and how his different use of an orchestra created some amazing sounds for so many fantasy films in the 50's and eventually many of the films for Hitchcock ... however, I am not sure that you can even consider a good listen to these things ... in some cases, the music is down right scary and weird ... and you already specified that's not your click. You want your metal, melodic, and not "anti-music".

4. Music listening, and appreciation, required one let go of ideas and tastes. If you study (take a music appreciation course in school!) some of this for the last 500 years, you will find nothing but the development of music from 2 or 3 instruments, to 150 and then the deconstruction of an orchestra to various weird combinations, that were most clear and represented with Stokowsky, who used to microphone special sections of the orchestra, in order to give that section a wider/larger role in its piece. It was perfect for a few films, and specially FANTASIA. 

5. At the time, there was a lot of "anti-film" (French, started in the 50's probably with Godard), "anti-theater" (English and American, with actors controlling the highlights ... think Stellllllllllllllllaaaaa (Brando) or Olivier doing his words of Shakespeare, making a set of words more important than the whole play!), "anti-literature" as exemplified by a lot of writers doing significantly different things, and the Americans probably had a lot to say bout that, but the French scene was also important.

The "anti-music" was more centered on the classical de-construction of music and it sounding weird and off beat and specially off key. It created a lot of strange things, in England and France ... many of which are now considered historical, since the folks involved were not exactly street urchins, but really well educated musicians that DID KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!

The thing that bothers me the most is how far behind the rock music scene was compared to many of these ... we're talking anywhere from 10 to 20 years ... and of course, now we could say that many listeners, some 50 or 60 years later, have made this even worse.

I, myself, am not the great GG fan ... but I have their first 7 albums ... because the musicianship of it all makes 5 or 6 of the bands in PA's top ten sound like high school bands! With the simplistic of music and sound possible being considered "important" ... which if 500 years of history is an example ... that's backwards!

have some heart ... do some serious listening ... it's not crap ... but really special stuff and the only one of its kind. many have tried to copy it and pay tribute to it ... but if you don't have it inside your heart and at the tip of your fingers, the copy just will not be as good. I don't dislike SB, but I would not put it in the same sentence as GG, either ... they did not grow up to be a special band on their own ... they grew up to love other bands ... how social and American this is ... you try to make sure that the fans love you and they think you are cool. Sorry SB ... I have GG in my collection, not SB (only 2 CD's!).




You're over generalizing about what people think of GG, and over intellectualizing music appreciation. You may even be doing all that without realizing it! Whatever.

The point is, no one has criticized GG as musicians. It's clear from the 4 albums I have in my collection, that they are technically talented and versatile musicians, but then broadly speaking you get that a lot in prog rock, so it's fairly disingenuous to suggest people don't appreciate the bands musical talent. If they like progressive rock, then they'll likely recognise good musicians when they hear them.

The idea of just letting the music take form without much formal composition is fine. Improvisation and/or instinctively letting music just 'flow' and take shape organically is testimony to the bands technical skill, and open minded approach to making music. I applaud that, but it doesn't obligate me to always enjoy the end result.

 

Funny really as The Power and The Glory sounds like the most meticulously plotted album I've ever heard. I don't hear this natural flow. It sounds like they solved an equation and then shouted 'Eureka' for 40 minutes. It really clicks with me. IAGH on the other hand does sound to me like a band that recorded the first thing they played and then exited the studio.
Then you have Three Friends which is all over the place to my ears. They are a fascinating band for sure but like all prog bands they put out a variety of stuff and really there is no obligation to like any of it all like all of it or like a tiny bit of it. Music is something to delve into and enjoy and relax to and have any opinion about .. of course!
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Acquiring The Taste, while not perfect, has become my favorite.

Something about so many colors in use from the musical palette.

The album tails off a little toward the end.

The House, The Street, The Room tickles all of my sensory centers.
Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I feel like An Inmate's Lullaby is quite a divisive track, fans of the band or not. It's a little "too wonky" for many. Even though that's my favorite GG record, that track is still a "WTF am I listening to..?!" moment for me. I don't think I could personally call it weak, it's just very, very different. GG always had that combinational vocal flair absent in the majority of popular progressive acts. Those dudes knew music very well.

Now, take a trip with me on this ....

50 years ago, there was no Internet, only LP's. And these did not make it into the USA (or elsewhere I'm sure), as fast ... many albums took months to get over here, as most of the "importers" were arms of larger record companies and they only brought in what they knew they could sell ... like the English version of Sgt Pepper because it was very different than the American release taken from a copy of a master found in a dump in Argentina!

So, yesterday (so to speak) ... you said "wtf am I listening to..?!" ... but your curiosity stayed up ... because the next thing you thought was ... wow ... what was that ... it's certainly different ... and you end up listening to it again, to find out what ticked in it ...

So, today (so to speak) ... you say "wtf am I listening to ..?!", but your curiosity will not always stick ... why? I like this and that which you have in your collection, and this is too weird to listen to and figure out and I'm not gonna bother, and you put on RUSH ... just to make sure you know where you stand!

I am not sure that GG, in their early days were that musically cultured ... I think that some of them came up with the idea that if you did something different with this, it would be fun, and even funny ... and then we can create some lyrics based on some literary references, so folks won't spend their time thinking that this is some sort of intellectual exercise.

GG, were all kids, just like us ... when they started out, they were learning their instruments just like everyone else ... thus, what came out, must have been figured out not only by accident but maybe by a sort of design. Per GG's statement, "nothing was written, we just played ... " to me this said it ... you came in today, and look what I came out with ... and the guy over there added a bass sequence that sounded like a broken string in it, and then ... someone added a counter vocal to it ... boom ... you got a combination that was strange, very weird really, although when you see it together cleaned up, it sounds like really polished music designed for ... an effect? I doubt it ... this band was not showy, even in concert ... they were very dedicated to the quality of what they did, even if the sync side of many videos are out of it.

It showed on their albums.

I often joke that GG is for folks that are not "riff" minded ... because if they are, this band will sound like the clocks in PF's album ... a total cacophony that will drive you nuts! My only question is ... is it intentional? ... now your perspective changes!

I was speaking rhetorically about the "WTF am I listening to?!", as in "I'm not ready for this sh*t yet", lmao. I've obviously since grown to love the track and all that GG has done. They (and VDGG) kind of "spoiled" my ears; I was never huge into PF or ELP and the former bands make the latter almost unlistenable anymore for me. 

I myself am a massive fan of riff oriented music, and GG actually has some fantastic riffs (the second half of In a Glass House is one of their best riffs EVER PUT TO TAPE IMHO), but GG was always more than the sum of its parts. That's one area I will agree with you; they transcended the limitations of those bands at the time in a completely orthogonal manner...I'd argue more orthogonal than any other band I can think of at the time. Relative to their peers, GG was a prog force unmatched, except by other top tier acts like VDGG and perhaps a few others I can't think of ATM.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I am really having a problem with understanding why these vocal harmonies feel "uncomfortable" to you. I could understand if someone said he does not like that kind of singing, but "uncomfortable"? do you mean to imply that there is, from a musicological point of view, something "wrong" with these harmonies, like for example using intervals that should not be sung at the same time?

Hmmm ... I'm thinking that the guy needs a steady diet of 200 Motels done with the orchestra and a full choir ... he has no idea of the potential and what that kind of "anti-music" did for so much music in the 20th century ... and, of course, if he doesn't have an ear for something that is not "organized" and "melodious" the way he wants ... can I say, politely and quietly amidst a puff of my favorite stash ... not a music listener!
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Originally posted by noni noni wrote:

I quite like Free Hand and Interview and often plays those when I'm in the mood for GG stuff.    I'm not partial to the other albums as they need an acquired ear to listen to these albums.   I have all the collection of GG's material and play only most of these a few times over a period of many years.

To many of us that had been with GG right from the start, I think that we thought that both of these albums were made almost exclusively for radio play in the FM dial ... specially in places like LA and NY ... where the band could be appreciated, since in England, their radio and listening ability was limited to "friends" ... and this is the part that is really hard to digest, and I'm not sure that people can see ... in those days, this "visibility", specially in America was HUGE ... and created massive sales ... mind you how many folks are in NY, and their big pull on music? In one evening they can sell one hundred thousand albums ... and have at least another hundred thousand ready to go ... and that makes them a massive star and important artist sales-wise for the rest of the industry.

Sadly, it also showed that the band had started to dry up compared to the creativity and explosions of music from the early catalog.
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

...
They (and VDGG) kind of "spoiled" my ears; I was never huge into PF or ELP and the former bands make the latter almost unlistenable anymore for me. 
...

How different for me ... I started in classical music ... parent's house had over 3K LP's of it, from the earliest and later I added Tomita to it!

After the Beatles and Procol Harum, Jimi, Janis and Doors and a few others, I came into what is called today "Progressive" by/with The Nice and ELP ... why? Their orientation from classical music, and the first ELP album I had was PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION that I immediately compared to a version conducted by Leonard Bernstein ... let me tell you ... LB had nothing on Mussorgsky!

When TARKUS came out, I remember telling some folks around me ... that it was a far out piano concert ... and the love and design and attention to detail in it, was extremely modern and very well composed and designed ... and seeing this done 45 years later by Rachel Flowers on plain piano ... was a VINDICATION of my words and how so much of this music is serious ... BUT WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT ANYTHING BEYOND A SONG AND ITS DEFINITION! Specially for what "progressive music" is or is supposed to be! We even disrespect the artists over it, btw ... like that Italian idiot trying to tell Gary Green what "progressive music is" and how GG didn't follow it! 

I've never left from the "classical" design and many things that are long cuts ... the beauty of these moments, are some of the shining lights of one's soul ... not just a 30 second snippet of a solo, or a megalomaniac guitarist doing "more notes" than anyone else so every one thinks he is a master at it ... no names mentioned, but we all know who they are!

In music, for me, everything is listenable ... what is weird is people wanting to "organize" the sounds and the instruments, so they can HEAR WHAT THEY WANT ... and trying hard to take that ability away from the musician himself. The 50's, 60's and 70's were a massive time for music experimentation of all time -- though classical music was almost 20 to 30 years ahead! AND, WE STILL DON'T GET IT ... and too many of these folks are looking at all this stuff as just another song ... if you stop that, your appreciation for music will double over night!
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It's a shame ... if anything within the first 5 or 6 GG albums, is a bunch of facts that you will never give attention to or some credit for their inventiveness.

1. Gary Green has been on record, specifying that in the early days, they never wrote anything down ... they just played. So the next time you listen, recognize that this is NOT ABOUT A SONG, but whatever comes out in the music ... similar to Gayle Ebbett specifying in his band that they might start with an A or a B, but will likely end up with a X, or Z ... which means, in case you don't know, that this is about the feel and the sound of the music ... not what you want ... you want hits ... GG is not for you, and many of us here will probably say bad things like ... good riddance! I would rather try to explain this for you, if you have the ears for it, but the music is throwing you off already ... and I doubt that any of our words will help!

2. The incredible musicianship of each member of the band, ought to at the very least, allow you an inch or two of ... yeah ... that's really good and tight ... and they were better in concert, even though most of the videos if it all have sync issues, and sound awful ... which doesn't help the band a whole lot. The show I got to see, their encore was 25 to 30 minutes long, and in that time all 6 band members played all instruments ... all 6 played drums, bass, guitar ... you name it ... so, when it comes to musicianship, I seriously doubt many bands can even stand up to the socks in these guys.

3. I have my doubts that you have actually listened to GG ... you played a few seconds, it didn't click and you tried another spot, same thing, and you decided it's not for you. You will NEVER, EVER, get an appreciation for a lot of the music in the 20th century, almost all of which was anti-melody and used a broken down orchestra (that too, but it means different combinations, not the usual!) to create different moods and ideas in music ... witness BERNARD HERRMAN and how his different use of an orchestra created some amazing sounds for so many fantasy films in the 50's and eventually many of the films for Hitchcock ... however, I am not sure that you can even consider a good listen to these things ... in some cases, the music is down right scary and weird ... and you already specified that's not your click. You want your metal, melodic, and not "anti-music".

4. Music listening, and appreciation, required one let go of ideas and tastes. If you study (take a music appreciation course in school!) some of this for the last 500 years, you will find nothing but the development of music from 2 or 3 instruments, to 150 and then the deconstruction of an orchestra to various weird combinations, that were most clear and represented with Stokowsky, who used to microphone special sections of the orchestra, in order to give that section a wider/larger role in its piece. It was perfect for a few films, and specially FANTASIA. 

5. At the time, there was a lot of "anti-film" (French, started in the 50's probably with Godard), "anti-theater" (English and American, with actors controlling the highlights ... think Stellllllllllllllllaaaaa (Brando) or Olivier doing his words of Shakespeare, making a set of words more important than the whole play!), "anti-literature" as exemplified by a lot of writers doing significantly different things, and the Americans probably had a lot to say bout that, but the French scene was also important.

The "anti-music" was more centered on the classical de-construction of music and it sounding weird and off beat and specially off key. It created a lot of strange things, in England and France ... many of which are now considered historical, since the folks involved were not exactly street urchins, but really well educated musicians that DID KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!

The thing that bothers me the most is how far behind the rock music scene was compared to many of these ... we're talking anywhere from 10 to 20 years ... and of course, now we could say that many listeners, some 50 or 60 years later, have made this even worse.

I, myself, am not the great GG fan ... but I have their first 7 albums ... because the musicianship of it all makes 5 or 6 of the bands in PA's top ten sound like high school bands! With the simplistic of music and sound possible being considered "important" ... which if 500 years of history is an example ... that's backwards!

have some heart ... do some serious listening ... it's not crap ... but really special stuff and the only one of its kind. many have tried to copy it and pay tribute to it ... but if you don't have it inside your heart and at the tip of your fingers, the copy just will not be as good. I don't dislike SB, but I would not put it in the same sentence as GG, either ... they did not grow up to be a special band on their own ... they grew up to love other bands ... how social and American this is ... you try to make sure that the fans love you and they think you are cool. Sorry SB ... I have GG in my collection, not SB (only 2 CD's!).




You're over generalizing about what people think of GG, and over intellectualizing music appreciation. You may even be doing all that without realizing it! Whatever.

The point is, no one has criticized GG as musicians. It's clear from the 4 albums I have in my collection, that they are technically talented and versatile musicians, but then broadly speaking you get that a lot in prog rock, so it's fairly disingenuous to suggest people don't appreciate the bands musical talent. If they like progressive rock, then they'll likely recognise good musicians when they hear them.

The idea of just letting the music take form without much formal composition is fine. Improvisation and/or instinctively letting music just 'flow' and take shape organically is testimony to the bands technical skill, and open minded approach to making music. I applaud that, but it doesn't obligate me to always enjoy the end result.

 

Funny really as The Power and The Glory sounds like the most meticulously plotted album I've ever heard. I don't hear this natural flow. It sounds like they solved an equation and then shouted 'Eureka' for 40 minutes. It really clicks with me. IAGH on the other hand does sound to me like a band that recorded the first thing they played and then exited the studio.
Then you have Three Friends which is all over the place to my ears. They are a fascinating band for sure but like all prog bands they put out a variety of stuff and really there is no obligation to like any of it all like all of it or like a tiny bit of it. Music is something to delve into and enjoy and relax to and have any opinion about .. of course!


I agree, regarding The Power and the Glory. It sounds like a mathematically orchestrated album in parts, at least. Playing the Game (probably one of my favourite GG songs - if I had to choose some) sounds very carefully 'composed'
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Well I apologize in advance to gentle giant fans...

I’ve really tried with these guys but I’m just not hearing what everyone else is. The only song that doesn’t give me a headache is proclamation. When I’m listening I realize their music is very unique but overall I just think... it’s bad. I’ve listened to power and the glory, octopus and in a glass house and free hand all a couple times now and I just can’t get into it. I can usually get into most prog, I hated van der graaf on first listen but now that’s a favorite, but with them I feel there is plenty of movement in their songs, with gentle giant I feel like they play 2 riffs a song and then do some uncomfortable vocal harmonies. I think so sincere may be one of the worst songs I’ve ever heard.

Spock’s Beard and Neal Morse imitating gentle giant is more enjoyable then gentle giant to me

Does anyone else have a similar experience with other popular artists?

GG are a group that has the merit and defect of condensing into medium-length songs (they have never written suites, not even mini-suites) many peculiarities in which they are masters: odd rhythm, polyphonic singing, electronic music, dissonances to keyboards, medieval melodic passage, blues guitar solos, violins that play classical music but often dissonant. The melody, when present, is never fully developed, insisted, dilated: indeed, it is soon contrasted with a dissonant musical passage, a contrapuntal moment, just look at Think Of Me With Kindness (Octopus), one of their most popular songs melodic and simple. 

This attitude is kept under control in their first two albums, in my opinion the best, because more related to rockblues: there their continuous variations are well integrated with the rock structure of the songs (consider the 4 songs longer on the first albums, all masterpieces), there are beautiful guitar solos (the three longest songs of Acquiring the Taste are among their masterpieces) and a song like Funny Ways (first album) shows how to make beautiful and engaging music by integrating rock with a score neoclassical with violins (from there they will try to repeat the miracle, putting at least one symphonic song with violins on each album) but they will no longer be able to write a similar masterpiece. 

From the third album, Three Friends, with a single masterpiece that draws on their initial formula (Peel the Paint), they will become math rock and pedantic, leaving more and more rock melody and power. Octopus is a partial exception, because it features songs inspired melodically and simple, so it turns out to be the easiest listening (also appreciated by classic-rock lovers) but by the subsequent In A Glass House (considered the best in the PA chart because, I suppose, "very progressive" as a structure but in my opinion it is the most overrated, the coldest and calculated and least inspired), GG exasperate their formula studied at the table, math and brain, to enter continuous variations and dissonances on the theme, giving up beautiful melodies and great rockblues pieces with Green's solos, and from there on they become less and less melodic, less and less rock and increasingly cold and cerebral (more prog, in a certain sense), achieving good results only when inspired by good melodies, as in some songs of The Power and The Glory and Free Hand and Missing Piece, not surprisingly you like Proclamation: it is one of the most immediate, clear and linear, with an easy melody and a good central bridge. 

From Interview included, it ends the compositional vein and apart from the second side of Missing Piece they get away with their instrumental ability. 

We may add that Derek Shulman has a beautiful voice but tends to sing in a rigid way, sometimes too screaming, not soft and tender, which exasperates even more the frantic musical pieces and with constant changes. Better the first 4 albums where Derek's voice alternated with that of Phil and the wonderful voice of Kerry, present mainly in the medieval melodic pieces. In the first 4 there are also winds. 

It is clear that to please their music must please these continuous changes studied at the table but I would advise you to listen to the their debut album and to Acquiring the Taste and to listen again Octopus, which are the three who, in my opinion, suffer less than the "prog excesses" that have forcibly enter into their music. 
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Ok wow, here I am 3 months later. Gentle Giant is my 6th favorite band, 5th on a good day. How I cringe at my old words. So after someone suggested acquiring the taste here I tried it and really liked it, then soon after Power and the Glory clicked. At a record fair I decided to take a plunge and got every giant album from Three Friends to Free Hand. The first time Octopus graced my ears... holy moly. Incredible band, I take back all that I said.
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I've never been able to get into Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf Generator either, so at least I know I'm not alone now amongst Prog-Rock aficionados. Tongue
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


I've never been able to get into Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf Generator either, so at least I know I'm not alone now amongst Prog-Rock aficionados.

Of course I’ve professed dislike for Gentle Giant as well, but I’m baffled with those drawing some sort of similarity with Van der Graaf Generator. They are musical opposites to me. Again, my problem with GG is the incessant use and staccato notes or notes of short duration generally. VdGG on the other hand, noteworthy for their exceptionally long drones. If we could have merged the writing skills of both groups we might have gotten something perhaps a little more varied and presumably more artful.
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


I've never been able to get into Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf Generator either, so at least I know I'm not alone now amongst Prog-Rock aficionados.

Of course I’ve professed dislike for Gentle Giant as well, but I’m baffled with those drawing some sort of similarity with Van der Graaf Generator. They are musical opposites to me. Again, my problem with GG is the incessant use and staccato notes or notes of short duration generally. VdGG on the other hand, noteworthy for their exceptionally long drones. If we could have merged the writing skills of both groups we might have gotten something perhaps a little more varied and presumably more artful.




I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. Gentle Giant is growing on me but I don't like VDGG, maybe because of the long droning sections in many of their songs. Oh well different strokes I guess. 
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Well I apologize in advance to gentle giant fans...
...
Does anyone else have a similar experience with other popular artists?

( I see that you re-posted ... here's a bit more ... )

You know ... ART is not there to satisfy your needs, and thinking that it is bad, or wrong, is not a wise way to listen to music ... you still fail to see how DIFFERENT than anyone else they were, specially at the time they did this ... and mentioning Neal Morse and his previous band, is almost an insult ... because they are not half the musicians that GG showed ... at a time, when EXPERIMENTATION and CREATIVE ENDEAVORS were ALLOWED, when nowadays, no one bothers, and some folks will continually recycle the same threads (hate GG/can't stand GG/etc etc) ... rather than listen to the music properly and find out ... what is it that helps folks create all these different and strange things.

Just so you know, it takes a LOT OF TALENT, musically, to play any of the stuff that GG did ... and it takes a high school level musicianship for anyone to play Neal Morse ... so all you are saying is that your tastes in music are quite elementary and not necessarily smart, or intelligent.

Just one last detail ... in those days, a lot of bands were around playing AGAINST MELODY, and it was very evident in the jazz at the time ... you probably thought of GG as a 2015 band, and how their music came about is not a part of your vocabulary ... in other words the melody has to slap you, so you can "know" ... this is the melody of this song!

One last thing, that SB/Neal Morse can not do ... there is an Italian interview with Gary Green, about their work in those days ... and the idiot interviewer spent his time telling Gary what "progressive music" supposedly is, and how GG failed to create it ... and finally GG says ... "... we never wrote anything, we just played" ... and for you this means that there was a lot of improvisation, and it had more similarities to what became known as "modern music" than it did some simpler rock song by someone that might appreciate GG, but really has no idea how it was created ... we are talking 5 or 6 folks improvising on top of each other, and in the end, create something totally far out and unusual ... which you are not capable of appreciating ... 

So, when reading PA these days, people think that "improvisation" means you start a riff and then the guitar player adds this, and the keyboard adds that ... and the lyricist will add a couple of this and that to it ... and so on ... and this is not exactly an "improvisation" at all ... it's a different exercise. For it to be an "improvisation" it almost has to be no one hearing anyone else, and every thing is glued together somehow ... make sure wrap your head on that concept and if you play in a band, fool around with it ... it's a far out exercise, and when you find moments that click, you stick to them like glue ... and usually they are some counter point by accident, not a riff or a melodious agreement of instruments.

AND, GG is also a part of the English bunch of bands that do all kinds of odd things, but I'm not sure that listing them or helping you listen to THE THIRD EAR BAND (as an example), or LOL COXHILL, or ART BEARS, or many others, will make you see some light at the end of the tunnel.

"Progressive Music" means, different and creative ... not just another song, and this is the difference in 2019 and 1968 and the difference in music and abilities is very clear ... but today, the media makes it look like its not possible, or wanted, and then we read things like your comments ... and I just feel sad about it all ... all many folks are doing is helping is to kill all the "progressive music", because the only thing many of them want is a simple melodic song! History of music seems to be mostly about melody ... 20th century is NOT about melody, except rock music in the top ten areas ... even here!!!!!


Edited by moshkito - October 16 2019 at 09:32
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Ok wow, here I am 3 months later. Gentle Giant is my 6th favorite band, 5th on a good day. How I cringe at my old words. So after someone suggested acquiring the taste here I tried it and really liked it, then soon after Power and the Glory clicked. At a record fair I decided to take a plunge and got every giant album from Three Friends to Free Hand. The first time Octopus graced my ears... holy moly. Incredible band, I take back all that I said.


Awesome. Who says a new pup can't learn new tricks? Oh wait, nobody says that. It's older brains that tend to be less malleable/open to new experiences and perspectives, but of course there are many who remain open-eared and open-minded. I've come across a few who also changed their minds about Gentle Giant. Sometimes it just comes down to forming an impression based on listening to the wrong music or listening to what could have been the right music but at the wrong time.

I look at my music appreciation as a journey. There's music I love now that I wouldn't have liked when I was younger, and some music I liked when I was younger that I don't really like now. Particular music has led me to other music, which has led me to other music,sometimes it was about finding those gateways; links between music forms. I think my tastes are more diverse than ever as I've been exposed to such much music, and I can appreciate music that I don't even like.


Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


I've never been able to get into Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf Generator either, so at least I know I'm not alone now amongst Prog-Rock aficionados.

Of course I’ve professed dislike for Gentle Giant as well, but I’m baffled with those drawing some sort of similarity with Van der Graaf Generator. They are musical opposites to me. Again, my problem with GG is the incessant use and staccato notes or notes of short duration generally. VdGG on the other hand, noteworthy for their exceptionally long drones. If we could have merged the writing skills of both groups we might have gotten something perhaps a little more varied and presumably more artful.

I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. Gentle Giant is growing on me but I don't like VDGG, maybe because of the long droning sections in many of their songs. Oh well different strokes I guess. 


I started listening to VdGG and GG at about the same time, GG was the one I got into first (it was Acquiring the Taste that made me a fan). I used to say here in my early days since GG and VdGG often were compared in polls, "I prefer my GG without the VD." VD as in Van der and Venereal Disease which was never considered funny enough to get any clap, I mean clappies *groan*. I might have also said that I preferred Vander to Van der, but that's by-the-by. While GG was my favourite bands when I started visiting this site (GG and PFM, which I think are comparable in some respects), I would say that my VdGG appreciation overtook my GG appreciation. I haven't put on GG much over the last decade, but kept returning to GG. GG was very easy for me to get into when I heard it. Been listening to GG again, and I still love it, especially for the early albums.

As for why people compare the two, I often do too, yet if someone were asking for bands like VdGG, I wouldn't quickly suggest GG, or vice versa. I would describe both as Art Rock and Progressive Rock, and I might say that they both have avant-prog qualities, and I don't think they are opposites (different, sure, but not antithetical, thus they commonly share the same audience). Both have kinds of complexity, both have experimental qualities, both are quite unique, and have an eclecticism about them. Both employ dissonance and consonance, soft and hard, both can sound kind of crazy (think Way of Life by GG). Both can be very gentle and beautiful (to my ears), and then switch to jarring music. And both have some evil riffage, in that regard I've compared these two before:





I definitely hear parallels between The Least We Can Do Is Wave to Each Other and Acquiring the Taste beyond having a certain quality in those two tracks, and Octopus and H To He....

And in sweet, sentimental or rather sorrowful songs they've done: Refugees, House with No Door, Think of Me With Kindness, Aspirations, Out of My Book etc.

While the two are dissimilar in various ways, I think they have quite a bit in common. I'd sooner compare VdGG to GG, than a great many other artists, even in PA.

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The problem for me with both Gentle Giant and Van der Graaf Generator, is I don't like the singers in either band, and if one doesn't like the singer fronting the band, then it's hard to appreciate the music of the band as a whole. Smile
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Quoting  Logan
"I prefer my GG without the VD." 

 Now that's funny!LOL
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GG, VdGG and the like is so metrosexual, an ideal listen for waxing all areas of the body.

True real men are into Purple, Sabbath and beer.
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