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Will science ever know everything?

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adityagupta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adityagupta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2019 at 00:29
I think science may not know everything
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2019 at 06:27
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Depends on what you mean by science and what you mean by thing.
 
indeed... some want to oppose "science" and tell you it's not able to demonstrate everything by natural principles (and it ("science") will always have something new "mystery" to chew upon) and discredit it to favour whatever the dudes believe in.
 
As such, when "we" try to demonstrate something scientifically, we're often doing it via maths, which is a human invention (just like "god" and "religions/sects" are) made from human logics... which is by definition imperfect.
 
Other foes tend to link "science" as the logic of atheism (in some respect, this is ok, but the short-circuit shouldn't be automatically be made) and therefore as an enemy of god & religion... therefore a target, like it is the case , here. As such, science is a human invention, a much better one than "god" (one of the worse invention) and religion (the absolute worst, since you're obliged to adore something that doesn't exist)... Whereas atheism is not a human invention (only humans believe in the existence of a "god", animals don't), nor is it an invention of any kind.
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

Science will never know everything. Unfortunately, some YouTubers (and others, it's not unique to YouTube) use that as an excuse to denigrate science and what we currently know in an attempt to promote their own unproven, and in some cases, batsh*t crazy theories. I truly want to keep an open mind but it's difficult sometimes.
 
YouTube is the biggest crap displayer on the planet and in the virtual world hovering around the planet... 95% of the people will only watch/listen but not read the comments below (which are probably editable by the poster himself) to see the reactions to what's been posted 
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2019 at 09:41
The way for science to achieve the knowledge of everything is the reduction of the idea of "everything" to the set of things science will know at some point. When it comes to the reduction of imagination we're probably on the right path, if not yet close to the endpoint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2019 at 09:44
As a constructivist I believe that we have an unlimited capacity to construct problems, but we also have the capacity to construct and therefore delimit the "set of relevant knowledge".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerfeet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2019 at 09:55
We are only in the infancy stage of knowledge but we think we are so advanced with our modern technological development. We need to develop mentally too or we will probably expire before we know everything. 
I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you. Robin Williams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2019 at 10:34
In the early part of the 20th century, the great mathematician, David Hilbert, attempted to formulate a set of mathematical axioms that would form the logical foundation for all of mathematics, but he kept running into paradoxes and contradictions. In steps Kurt Gödel who proved that any consistent (i.e non-contradictory) system complex enough to encompass basic arithmetic (or higher) would contain statements that may be true, but are unproveable within the system, thus the system is incomplete. You can have completeness or consistency, but not both. Either way, there are things you don't know. If the system is complete, you have contradictions, so the truth cannot be established. If the system is consistent, there are statement which can't be proven, so again, you don't know the truth. Knowing everything is, therefore, logically impossible.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2019 at 14:30



"Hello there seeker...now don't feel alone cause there is a seeker born very minute...."

Wink


Edited by dr wu23 - May 16 2019 at 14:31
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2019 at 06:53
Hi,

Nowadays, this question is relative to where you live and study and impossible in the rest of the world until the next event that changes it in your location.

I say this, because a lot of "religion", or something under that designation, is trying hard to wipe science and education, so it can control the things that it wants. In general, even the "Christians" are doing this in America, by making sure that they are changing the laws of the country and confusing the "law" for the public, with a "religion" for the public. This is a very scary time, and place for these things ... we complaint about may of the this and that from so many of the revolutionary forces around the world, but we are doing exactly the same thing with different tools ... we vote without ethics and understanding of what we are voting for in America, in some cases.

Thus, the answer to that question is impossible ... because tomorrow or the next week, the country that came up with that idea, is now totally controlled by _________ and that "science" is wiped from the map as illegal and improper. Likewise, some governments might make a religion improper and maintain some controls on it, to ensure that ____________ does not happen again!

In my own, pseudo scientific way, it will be impossible for the science to EVER know anything within an expanding universe ... why? The physics on it will be ever changing and spreading further than we know or can imagine, and this is impossible for us to see and articulate until much later and another generation and putting it in perspective is ever harder because humans do not live that long, and their memory, even today, is even further wasted and thrown away ... we literally ignore the sciences of yesterday because they are "outdated", and think those folks were not intelligent, when they were the "kindergarten" of what we are today, so to speak.

Honestly, and I try to not be cynical about it, this whole question is a waste of time. It will only take a stellar event a few seconds and the earth would be gone, including all the memories of everything we can think of and only space dust will be out there ... with a memory going nowhere and susceptible to the next stronger particle or set of particles of any energy ... thus, in some ways, our "projecting" into that area, into what is commonly known as "the unknowable", is something that for the most part is a waste of time and energy on our part, and sometimes an excuse to not do right and good in our own lives.

Sorry about the soapbox moment ... but there were around Santa Barbara some 35 years ago, a lot of folks that were getting into ________________ and they used these kinds of thoughts to try and trap you into ... admitting that you have no answers, which their ______________ did! Right! I never lost a single "debate" in that area, and many folks were just uneducated, and matriculated into a sort of religion ... as a way to ignore and get away from the place and times, and the arts and social revolutions of the time! Honestly, I found the whole thing pathetic and boring!


Edited by moshkito - May 17 2019 at 06:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2019 at 08:26

I don’t think the physics or laws change within our universe, expanding or not.  Our theories and understanding changes but the laws that govern the universe do not.

Assuming man will not annihilate himself, how far can we really progress?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

It may go even further, type IV and V..

https://futurism.com/the-kardashev-scale-type-i-ii-iii-iv-v-civilization

There is even talk of type VI, which is definitely not achievable.  At least not for the egoic mind. Big smile



Edited by CosmicVibration - May 17 2019 at 08:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2019 at 17:57
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

it will be impossible for the science to EVER know anything within an expanding universe ... why? The physics on it will be ever changing and spreading further than we know or can imagine

Dead right, sir. And yet several new Physical laws waiting to take place , for yet another brand new events to occur in our ever changing Universe.
LOL....... we won't not even know everything about our brain issues, let alone the everlasting unsolved questions of science.
First off, people seem to forget that human development historically depended a good deal on the revolutionary deeds of genius mindsets, and we won't ever know exactly why these people soar above the rest of us ... 
As human history tells, people like them were capable of revolutionizing even our current understanding of the very laws of the universe, but our full understanding of how their minds work will likely never happen either....
And let us face our today's miserable reality: the ever increasing lack of support can stunt prospects for potential geniuses, they never get the chance to be productive, let alone people born into poverty or oppression who don’t get a shot at working toward anything other than staying alive.
.



Edited by Tillerman88 - May 17 2019 at 18:02
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2019 at 11:50
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


"Hello there seeker...now don't feel alone cause there is a seeker born very minute...."

Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2019 at 17:30
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

it will be impossible for the science to EVER know anything within an expanding universe ... why? The physics on it will be ever changing and spreading further than we know or can imagine

Dead right, sir. And yet several new Physical laws waiting to take place , for yet another brand new events to occur in our ever changing Universe.
LOL....... we won't not even know everything about our brain issues, let alone the everlasting unsolved questions of science.
First off, people seem to forget that human development historically depended a good deal on the revolutionary deeds of genius mindsets, and we won't ever know exactly why these people soar above the rest of us ... 
As human history tells, people like them were capable of revolutionizing even our current understanding of the very laws of the universe, but our full understanding of how their minds work will likely never happen either....
And let us face our today's miserable reality: the ever increasing lack of support can stunt prospects for potential geniuses, they never get the chance to be productive, let alone people born into poverty or oppression who don’t get a shot at working toward anything other than staying alive.
.



What “new Physical laws”?  Yes, the universe may be changing, evolving and growing but it’s doing so with fixed laws that are exact and precise.  



Edited by CosmicVibration - May 18 2019 at 17:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2019 at 19:17
^We see here an example of a typical conceptualisation, by yours truly.

No one can deny that the laws of physics aren’t the forces of the universe. 
Putting it in other words, the forces of the universe are observed and conceptualised into clearly defined models that represent the effects of these forces. Even the most realistic scientific model ever accomplished by exhaustive observations and experimentations can't ever be completely separated from the conceptualisation aspect, because it's inherent to the finite human mind. Conceptualisation literally takes us apart from the actual thing going on...
In the scientific world, the limitations of the human mind becomes always apparent......
 
 it's very unlikely we could ever prove the laws of physics must exist in a permanent, eternal state, IMO.
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The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2019 at 00:04
This Arsenal supporting mathematician does articulatequite well the impossibility of predicting a dice throw (or even his beloved Gooners' future results) citing Poincare's chaos theory and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle referred to in an earlier post by omphaloskepsis








Edited by ExittheLemming - May 19 2019 at 00:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2019 at 06:20
I'm very impressed by what hard science has found out about physical things like the structure, workings and evolution of the universe and living things, but other interesting topics such as the nature of consciousness or meaningful coincidences are outside its remit.
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2019 at 13:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2019 at 19:23
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

No, Science will always "know" exactly what corporations and governments want it to

.... or religions don't want you to talk about .... 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2019 at 23:01
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:


No,

Science

will
always
"know"
exactly
what

corporations

and

governments

want

it
to


Good set of links there - that is why I mentioned the “hard” science attempting to discover the truth rather than sell pharmaceuticals, cosmetics and foods. I hadn’t been thinking of censorship but yes some truths may not be accessible by everyone due to suppression by ideological, religious or financial authorities.
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2019 at 13:24
http://hubblesite.org/news_release/news/2019-25

"New physics may be needed to rectify the universe's past and present behavior."

"Something is amiss in astronomers' efforts to measure the past and predict the present, according to a discrepancy between the two main techniques for measuring the universe's expansion rate – a key to understanding its history and physical parameters."

"Theorists must find an explanation for the disparity that could rattle ideas about the very underpinnings of the universe."

"Astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope say they have crossed an important threshold in revealing a discrepancy between the two key techniques for measuring the universe's expansion rate. The recent study strengthens the case that new theories may be needed to explain the forces that have shaped the cosmos."

"These most precise Hubble measurements to date bolster the idea that new physics may be needed to explain the mismatch. "

"The Hubble tension between the early and late universe may be the most exciting development in cosmology in decades," said lead researcher and Nobel laureate Adam Riess of the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) and Johns Hopkins University, in Baltimore, Maryland. "This mismatch has been growing and has now reached a point that is really impossible to dismiss as a fluke. This disparity could not plausibly occur just by chance."

"This is not just two experiments disagreeing," Riess explained. "We are measuring something fundamentally different. One is a measurement of how fast the universe is expanding today, as we see it. The other is a prediction based on the physics of the early universe and on measurements of how fast it ought to be expanding. If these values don't agree, there becomes a very strong likelihood that we're missing something in the cosmological model that connects the two eras."
.



Edited by Tillerman88 - May 20 2019 at 13:27
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2019 at 17:06
I guess it was Einstein who said: Every scientific discovery opens a door that was closed, and opening that door, we discover seven other closed doors that we did not see before.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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