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The Anders View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 07 2019 at 07:24
As a newcomer to this site I have been looking through the many artists bios, and there seems to be a lot of artists that aren't exactly prog, but which count as prog related in one way or another. A surprising omission is the Savage Rose, a legendary Danish band that formed around 1967 and released a string of highly original albums in the late 60's and early 70's. I see there are articles about other notable Danish bands of the era such as Culpeper's Orchard and Day of Phoenix, but not the Savage Rose.

I we speak "pure prog", as in Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc., they don't belong there of course, but I would personally call them prog related. The music was most certainly progressive.

The classic lineup was formed around the brothers Thomas and Anders Koppel who had a background in classical music. Both were acclaimed classical composers (children of the composer Hermann D. Koppel), but in the late 60's they decided to do "beat music" as it was then called, mixing elements of their classical backround with the sound of westcoast rock and jazz. Other notable band members include drummer Alex Riel, a jazz legend, and the lead singer Annisette (Hansen, later Koppel).

Their music was mixing psychedelic rock, pop, jazz and classical music. Later they changed style several times, to Balkan music, and later soul. The band continues to exist though singer Annisette is the only original member.

Here a song from their debut album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLN5r1INIIE
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Hej Anders (jeg skyder på det er dit navn;)

Welcome aboard! As you can probably guess I too am a big fan of The Savage Rose. Annisette is my favourite female vocalist bar none. I listened to The Ballad Of Gale off of Refugee here the other day and literally thought the goosebumps forming all over my body were about to burst my skin. She has a way of doing that to me. Når lysene tændes i Parken always takes me to Goosebumps City as well. Just achingly beautiful.

Anyway I’m fairly certain they’ve been suggested a couple of times before but never really got anywhere, because a) they were never really a prawk band and b) the prog related category only really lists acts that either influenced prog in a big way or somehow made their mark on it. I know..looking at some of the other bands listed there makes your head spin...but that’s only because prog related previously more or less was a dumping ground for acts that sounded kinda proggy. By that criteria we would end up with a subgenre twice as big as all the prog subs combined. Almost everybody flirted around with sonic experimentation during the 70s, which also is why we’ve had Elton John and Toto suggested quite a few times.
I am not saying that Savage Rose sounds anything like the above, but I figure that PA had to draw the line somewhere at some point.

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Edited by Guldbamsen - January 07 2019 at 10:27
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Hey, you're right. They don't seem to be on here. Anyway, I always thought it was just Savage Rose. The gnosis website(gnosis2000)has them listed as just Savage Rose. However, wikipedia has the Savage Rose.

I really only know about this band because they had a track on the old Supernatural Fairytales Boxed set(which was a prog compilation for the years 1967-1976)that came out in the 90's. 
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Ah, I see. It makes sense.
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Not even close to prog, unless you also consider The Doors, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Them and Love as prog as well. They were a 60s soul/R&B/pop band. 
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Not even close to prog, unless you also consider The Doors, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Them and Love as prog as well. They were a 60s soul/R&B/pop band. 

This is where the designations are a problem.

The Doors could/should/would be considered to be extremely progressive, specially as their material was so theatrical (for the most part) which was a very large and important consideration for the pieces that made "progressive" famous. Complete with a longer experience.

Jefferson Airplane, was, by far, one of the great inspirations for many a band in Europe that ended up being "progressive", but we take exception to the fact that they were a bunch of individualists that worked together instead of a supposed "band" that create an "opus" piece of music or two. BUT, when one goes through their catalog, the amount of outstanding work deserves a mention, even if it were in the "lesser" areas of progressive. FEW bands, VERY FEW of them, stuck their neck out and really fought the good fight for many things, and they deserve that respect and credit. Nowadays, a band like them would get laughed off the stage and people get mad because they would not want to play one hit or two  ... I say, just like Paul and Grace did more than once ... screw you!

Janis Joplin, fits differently, and I think that most would not vote for her as any kind of progressive material, but her power and aggressive lyrics and expression, is/was something that progressive lived with for a long time (witness Peter Hammill by himself or with group!) and many others over the years. I doubt that many of them would even list her at all, but she was probably one of the first to really belt the heck out of words out, and strongly so.

And this is the shadowy area in considering someone "progressive" or not. We end up deciding that because Janis did not have an organ in the background, the band can't be progressive, and because the Doors also sing about a whiskey bar, that's way too quaint and poor for rock music, let alone progressive ... no one gives a deep poop that it happens to be one of the great songs of the 20th century and its history of pop music ... Kurt Weill and Bertold Brecht (together and apart) deserve better, and Jim showed it. 

But we're stuck on the fact that "progressive" can not be literary, or intelligent, or even historic ... it has to come off as a fantasy or a limmeric, or some fancy wording, so no one knows what it is about!
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The Savage Rose is much more than 60s soul/R&B/pop, in fact their early work has little to do with soul and r&b. They moved towards soul later, but listen to their music for the ballet Dødens Triumf (Triumph of Death). Here f.e. the first track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMqzhhdNdhg
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I personally prefer David Bowie's version of the Alabama Song. I think it is much more interesting musically. Not that I don't like the Doors' version, but it is more straight forward, also compared to the original version from Mahagonny.

I like Kurt Weill a lot, especially the music from the Dreigroschenoper. Btw. There was a Danish musician, Sebastian, who wrote an album with new music to some lyrics of Bertolt Brecht. Very different from both Weill and Eisler, and some saw it as a kind of sacrilage. Here f.e. his version of Die Ballade vom Wasserrad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JktP1t9ddCg
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Not even close to prog, unless you also consider The Doors, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Them and Love as prog as well. They were a 60s soul/R&B/pop band. 

This is where the designations are a problem.

The Doors could/should/would be considered to be extremely progressive, specially as their material was so theatrical (for the most part) which was a very large and important consideration for the pieces that made "progressive" famous. Complete with a longer experience.

Jefferson Airplane, was, by far, one of the great inspirations for many a band in Europe that ended up being "progressive", but we take exception to the fact that they were a bunch of individualists that worked together instead of a supposed "band" that create an "opus" piece of music or two. BUT, when one goes through their catalog, the amount of outstanding work deserves a mention, even if it were in the "lesser" areas of progressive. FEW bands, VERY FEW of them, stuck their neck out and really fought the good fight for many things, and they deserve that respect and credit. Nowadays, a band like them would get laughed off the stage and people get mad because they would not want to play one hit or two  ... I say, just like Paul and Grace did more than once ... screw you!

Janis Joplin, fits differently, and I think that most would not vote for her as any kind of progressive material, but her power and aggressive lyrics and expression, is/was something that progressive lived with for a long time (witness Peter Hammill by himself or with group!) and many others over the years. I doubt that many of them would even list her at all, but she was probably one of the first to really belt the heck out of words out, and strongly so.

And this is the shadowy area in considering someone "progressive" or not. We end up deciding that because Janis did not have an organ in the background, the band can't be progressive, and because the Doors also sing about a whiskey bar, that's way too quaint and poor for rock music, let alone progressive ... no one gives a deep poop that it happens to be one of the great songs of the 20th century and its history of pop music ... Kurt Weill and Bertold Brecht (together and apart) deserve better, and Jim showed it. 

But we're stuck on the fact that "progressive" can not be literary, or intelligent, or even historic ... it has to come off as a fantasy or a limmeric, or some fancy wording, so no one knows what it is about!


 

Not a problem at all in my mind as prog doesn't exist as a style of music in its own right. Which is why there are endless discussions on prog forums and endless threads of people appropriating all sorts of bands as "prog" There is prog rock or classic rock as most people call it. But "prog" however is not a style of music. 
The whole what is or isn't prog discussion is ludicrous and is as daft as discussions rying to define art.   
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The whole what is or isn't prog discussion is ludicrous and is as daft as discussions rying to define art.   

Maybe but it's a lot of fun.   And if you want to have a discussion about what defines music, bring it on!
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I like them.. I never throw in a "prog thermostat" - everyone has their own definition..

But to a (wow, "Alabama Song" just came on randomly, 1 in 5,200 chance) comment made earlier about The Doors - they are definitely progressive. It seems like the first prog-rock bands are disregarded because they didn't sound like everyone else, which to me is anti-progressive.
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

...
The whole what is or isn't prog discussion is ludicrous and is as daft as discussions trying to define art.   
Hi,

There was a French Film that spend nearly 4 hours painting a huge painting stroke by stroke, and in the end there is a comment by the model's boyfriend that it was stupid to spend that long in time for one painting, and the artists says ... that's because it is not a photograph.

There is a "difference" in the process and the results.

A lot of the music we have come to call "progressive" is mostly a photograph of the originals, and not as well "centered" as it could be or might have been, to be able to define it as art ... when you talk to a musician, and all he says is "it's rock'n'roll", then you know that this is not about art ... it's about his idea of what that music is, AND YOU PAY FOR IT!

BTW, if EVER you want to hear, see and read more about The Savage Rose, NO ONE, can speak so much for them as EUROCK did over the years ... I'm not sure that Archie can even separate the number of articles (probably over 100 in 30 years maybe?) and it would make an incredible book, including the interviews and comments by many of the folks in the band itself, and then about some of the political and social upheavals that the band went through.

It was sad in many ways, but the band continued. But I don't think that anyone was as important to them as EUROCK had been for a very long time. Only to be forgotten when Archie kinda retired to do something else. AND Archie is one of the people that should be giving us a history of "progressive" in Southern California before he came up to Portland, and even giving us an inner view of the world of "imports" of which he was a part for so many years that we can't even count that far!


Edited by moshkito - October 30 2020 at 13:12
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Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

As a newcomer to this site I have been looking through the many artists bios, and there seems to be a lot of artists that aren't exactly prog, but which count as prog related in one way or another. A surprising omission is the Savage Rose, a legendary Danish band that formed around 1967 and released a string of highly original albums in the late 60's and early 70's. I see there are articles about other notable Danish bands of the era such as Culpeper's Orchard and Day of Phoenix, but not the Savage Rose.

I we speak "pure prog", as in Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc., they don't belong there of course, but I would personally call them prog related. The music was most certainly progressive.

The classic lineup was formed around the brothers Thomas and Anders Koppel who had a background in classical music. Both were acclaimed classical composers (children of the composer Hermann D. Koppel), but in the late 60's they decided to do "beat music" as it was then called, mixing elements of their classical backround with the sound of westcoast rock and jazz. Other notable band members include drummer Alex Riel, a jazz legend, and the lead singer Annisette (Hansen, later Koppel).

Their music was mixing psychedelic rock, pop, jazz and classical music. Later they changed style several times, to Balkan music, and later soul. The band continues to exist though singer Annisette is the only original member.

Here a song from their debut album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLN5r1INIIE

have you suggested the band? Confused
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

have you suggested the band? Confused


Well this thread is from early 2019, and someone suddenly brought it up again a few days ago. From what I understand, they have been suggested before, but it was turned down.
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

...
Not a problem at all in my mind as prog doesn't exist as a style of music in its own right. Which is why there are endless discussions on prog forums and endless threads of people appropriating all sorts of bands as "prog" .
...

Hi,

This might be/sound a bit harsh but it DOES make sense within a rock music context. Even jazz did not have a moment of clarity that created new music. They did have Miles, but there were many folks, on piano for example, that were doing their thing, similar to what Miles ended up doing ... but we all think one LP was great and the rest of the jazz'rs were not worthy of a mention.

Classical music kinda died when rock took over, because even the Met could no longer afford to pay the "stars" and not have the benefits of a sell out and commercial endorsements that they had before! The "Texaco" cheating money dried up! Classical music has been very unlikely to make a recovery until a recod label, or company decides to treat them fairly and give them a strong go. But the biggest problem, STILL IS, that no one can afford an orchestra anymore ... and that is hurting classical music to no end!

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

...
There is prog rock or classic rock as most people call it. But "prog" however is not a style of music. 
The whole what is or isn't prog discussion is ludicrous and is as daft as discussions trying to define art.   

Art is a process that creates something and it can be on different areas and disciplines. Defining art is not what this is about, however, HOW IT WAS CREATED, could be EASILY consider an artistic process, and not crediting them with that ability is similar to saying that all musicians our age (now 60's and up), are a bunch of hackers that were just plain stupid doing "nothings" for music that many folks paid for and invested in ... and you know as well as I that is not true at all.

There were, in the 20th century a lot of variations in classical music, and some folks didn't like Stravinsky, and others did not like Schoenberg, and others did not like Carmina Burana and so on ... and rock music kinda went the same way ... different roads to many different places ... but not crediting them with their ability and creativity, is grossly unfair. We might as well think that all classical music in the 20th century was sh*t because it was not a style, that was recognized ... when the idea in the whole thing, specially Stravinsky early on, was ALREADY to break up the styles that were getting boring!

Guess what rock music did? So why is it being criticized as "not a style" or "valid" music? 

It is a "style" except the only mentality we have is telling folks that it requires this and that and a blue guitar and a green organ, and a pink guitar ... the stupidest description of music ever defined!


Edited by moshkito - November 01 2020 at 08:08
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I wonder whether David's aware of this pre-existing tribute to The Savage Rose? Wink
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I wonder whether David's aware of this pre-existing tribute to The Savage Rose? Wink

Now, I am, thanks. I don't find Savage Rose to be so proggy, either, but my fave of their albums is Dødens Triumf 
(The Triumph of The Death, 1972) which is a soundtrack to a ballet based on E. Ionesco's play Jeu de Massacre. 



Edited by David_D - April 09 2023 at 06:00
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Not even close to prog, unless you also consider The Doors, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Them and Love as prog as well. They were a 60s soul/R&B/pop band. 
Hi,

The only concern I have about this statement is that some bands DID push the pop elements of their music and as such likely deserve to be mentioned in the "prog" categories somewhere. The Doors, and JA had specially great evolution and music in their albums ... but if we are not considering them "progressive" it is only because we created a very restrictive definition based on 3 or 4 bands, and told the rest of the music world to get lost! The whole definition was not even about "music" ... it was about elements that exist in all music for the last many years, for which no one would want to be associated with it, something that Robert Fripp states all the time ... KC is not progressive. In fact, I would call them "classical" in their detailed approach to rehearsal and performance! Something that nine out of 10 bands do not have the capacity to do!

The Savage Rose, or Savage Rose, suffered some horrible periods in the history of pop music in Europe and its many changes ... and sadly, they could not settle on one thing, but it would be hard to detail these things with a singer like Annisette, for which things have to be written almost to her voice (a la Janis Joplin for example) instead of creating music for another reason, which I think hurt the band's stature and musicality ... in some ways the classical original band, was not quite a good match for her voice, but it worked some ...

For a lot of detailed information about this band ... get EUROCK, by Archie Patterson ... in the early days of the periodical (the book puts them together), only Richard Pinhas/Heldon got more attention, and their words are really valuable but they also show what I would think/consider, an identity crisis with their audience and themselves. I might not have said this exactly correctly as I meant to, btw!

My concern, though might also be related to the folks that make these calls, that sometimes ... SOMETIMES ... do not take the history of the band and the folks around them as a good reason why those bands ended up well known and such. "Krautrock" (for example) makes sense as an artistic medium used in film, theater, literature and other arts ... makes absolutely no sense when it is used as a pop music description other than maybe saying it doesn't sound like English or American music ... whoopeeeedooooo!!!

The Savage Rose, sadly, did not join, or entertain the music changes at the time, which was almost all going psychedelic and long cut, and ... they were stuck in the small song! Wrong time, wrong place ... and therefore, the lack of recognition!



Edited by moshkito - April 09 2023 at 06:47
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The whole what is or isn't prog discussion is ludicrous and is as daft as discussions rying to define art.   

Maybe but it's a lot of fun.   And if you want to have a discussion about what defines music, bring it on!



Hi,

I can see the study and definition of "music" to help folks understand and get a nice idea of how western music has developed/changed in 500 years.

Now, the definition of "art" is a problem because commerciality has made "art" just about anything that is famous and has sold a gazillion this or that. And, on top of it all, us believing it, makes it worse, up to and including the top ten of everything we can think of. Like trying to decide of the 12 forks in the drawer in your kitchen which one you gonna use, and they are all the same ... there is no "art" in that!

There is a side of the human ability that is not easy to copy, or redo, and in my book that is the side that we consider "art" ... there are a hundred copyists of Picasso, but not a single one of them can fool you or I ... the individualized touch by Picasso gives it away, and the same goes for a lot of music.

The problem arrives when academic studies say that a passage that goes like this means this and that, and that a Major key means this and a Minor key means that, something that even Bach showed us the opposite, and we don't believe it ... we still fall for "melody" ... and the only reason is because you can whistle it and you can not whistle any more than 30 seconds of The Rite of Spring.

This means that "individuality" has become the definition of "art" to a degree, but we see all kinds of stuff in the NY, Paris and London galleries that are just plain bad copies selling for hundreds and hundreds of whatever, and considered "art", simply because they are in the gallery ... and this reminds me of that picture by Robert Mapplethorpe that more than likely was a huge fudge you to the NY art folks, when a huge black penis was inside a champagne flute! It negated a lot of art, because of its greed for "hugeness", or in the case of galleries, major money!

I don't think a discussion of art is a problem ... it's having it b*****dized and taken away from the creative freedoms and history that is a problem for me.
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