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The origins of progressive rock (proto-prog)
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miamiscot View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 04 2019 at 07:38
Billy Ritchie invented Prog.

I've heard that before.

It's not 100% false.
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Albert H View Drop Down
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Many British musicians would strongly argue that UK Prog began with Billy Ritchie and his band "1-2-3".  Their residency in late '66 and early '67 at the Marquee introduced musicians as diverse as Jon Anderson,  Jeff Lynne, Deep Purple, David Bowie and Keith Emerson to the idea of complex orchestrations played in extended works.

Unfortunately, there is little by way of recordings of this band - there are a couple of poor quality tape-recorded bootlegs - but they never really got into the studio in their original form.

In 1969, a change of management lead to a change of name.  They became "Clouds" and released two albums under that name.  Sadly, according to people (mostly musicians) who'd taken the time to seek them out in their original incarnation, "Clouds" was a shadow of the former band.  They allowed their management to push them into performing "more accessible", lighter "pop" material.

Billy Ritchie gave up the music business in disgust in 1972 or so. Ouch  Progressive music lost one of its greatest innovators.

It's worth reading "The ABC of 1-2-3 by Billy Ritchie himself, and  "The Story Of Clouds" by James P. Alexander.


Edited by Albert H - January 04 2019 at 07:14
"Why is it humming?"<p>
"Because it doesn't know the words"
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

To Jiminy...I need to go back and listen to Clouds...I have that 2on1 cd release.....Scrapbook and Watercolour Days. I was not aware that Yes was influenced by them.

I wasn't sure where I had heard about yes and decided to do some digging...

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/culture/music/interview-clouds-the-greatest-scottish-band-you-ve-never-heard-of-1-2234975

apparently A LOT of proggers loved these guys, not just Yes. And potentially stole from them. I need to listen to them more as well! Its hard to go back to the old stuff sometimes but so worth it
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I suppose you're saying that prog is one of the ripples that was generated by the rock thrown at the surface of the lake?

Exactly   
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.
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To Jiminy...I need to go back and listen to Clouds...I have that 2on1 cd release.....Scrapbook and Watercolour Days. I was not aware that Yes was influenced by them.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

You should buy a copy on cd......I did when these old obscure albums were being released many years ago.
I have toyed around with getting an original on vinyl...for some collectors it's a holy grail album....worth over a grand in good shape. If I could find a cheap one for say $500....
;)

That is a great idea, I think I will! I would already have it on vinyl if it wasn't so costly, maybe some day...
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Sorry to get everything off topic though - as far as the prog scene, I feel like the psychedelic rock scene played more of a role in influencing progressive music than we realize, for instance the Clouds have been mentioned to have influenced Yes among others heavily. I think that seeing more mainstream acts succeed in pushing the boundaries of rock more primed the public for the emergence of prog rock than influencing the music (not that the beatles and such didn't influence prog, just that their influence on artists specifically might be overstated)
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You should buy a copy on cd......I did when these old obscure albums were being released many years ago.
I have toyed around with getting an original on vinyl...for some collectors it's a holy grail album....worth over a grand in good shape. If I could find a cheap one for say $500....
;)
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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I think Sabbath and them were about the same time, and Sabbath certainly had a greater influence on the genre I wouldn't contest that. I guess its a stretch to say all metal since I think thrash metal like Metallica wouldn't have been influenced by it. And that I'm not sure, I just know that when I listen to First Utterance (on youtube of course, shame its not on spotify) it sounds like they're trying to play metal just on the wrong instruments. And it very much works!

*edit - I definitely mean a darker metal than mainstream, of course


Edited by jiminyCrikett - June 08 2018 at 13:33
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^ Early hard/rock /metal scene...? Like as early as Sabbath ,or are you talking about Iron Maiden and later bands like  Metallica....?
I wonder if any of the true metal bands ever listened to old obscure proggy folk...? That would be interesting to hear about. I always assumed that the metal bands were following in the footsteps of Sabbath and Maiden, etc...
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I guess I always thought the dark nature of the lyrics and sound were influential to the entire metal scene but I have been wrong before haha
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

while as an album genre, prog would not reach the realization stage before 1969’s ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ by King Crimson and the commercialization stage a year later.
 
Procol Harum released Shine On Brightly over year before, there is "In Held Twas In I" that I think is fullblooded prog epic, also prog elements on the other songs in album. Also, there is mention about 1968 as a year of prog albums (specially the Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis also has one side long epic), but not anything about that Procol Harum great album.

It's always debatable whether an early PA listed album is full blown prog. 'Shine on brightly' has full songs and segments of songs that are prog (successful genre integration) the rest is R&B, blues. 
Well, I think only true blues or R&B song in Shine On Brightly is "Wish Me Well". Have you really listened the whole album?
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I can see some influence to 70's prog bands and I suppose many of these early prog acts listened to one another if they had a chance  ... but metal...? Bit of a stretch imho.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Well...they both get listed here as 'prog- folk'...which is I suppose a decent description.
Though to me at times they are more folky rock and not all that proggy.
Who do you think they influenced in the world of prog or are you limiting their influence to prog folk.?

Although they are prog-folk, I would say that they are the beginnings of metal with their darker lyrics, and their use of a wide range of instruments, time signatures, lengthy pieces, and conceptual music all before the 70s had to influence the classic 70s proggers as well

*edit 
Just looked and I guess the two albums I would have said were influential were both in '71 so...
lol maybe they were more influential to metal than prog. But I'm sure that progressive artists, although they listened to the pop of the day, might have been more influenced by less known bands doing things before their time.


Edited by jiminyCrikett - June 08 2018 at 13:10
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^Ok...fair enough.....  :)
Who are some of your favorite proto prog and early prog bands that are less well known...? I love some of those one hit wonders who did just an album or two.
for example...I'm a fan of Cressida, Spring, and Fantasy.


Edited by dr wu23 - June 08 2018 at 12:59
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Is there a romance blooming on the forum...?

;)

LOL

Just the usual late 60s s**** HeartHug
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Is there a romance blooming on the forum...?

;)
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.
Got cha! Thumbs Up

Love you, Steve Heart

I was pleased to see you back a few years ago. We both left (or were left) and returned (insert a biblical reference here? LOL).
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Originally posted by jiminyCrikett jiminyCrikett wrote:

Where would you guys put bands like Comus and Jan Dukes de Grey? I would say that they are extremely influencial to a lot of different music we listen to today but not popularly of course

I confess early Prog Folk is not my expertise so if you're asking if any of these artists delivered the first fullblown Prog Folk album, I 'surrender'.

SteveG is THE EXPERT into this.

SteveG?........
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