Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 04 2018 at 09:04
Atavachron wrote:
Mortte wrote:
If you think they all are same kind of stealers, put me examples. Put a Jimi song that he stoled from somebody and took the credits himself.
Too many to enumerate: 'Purple Haze', 'Foxy Lady', 'Red House', 'Freedom' and 'Have You Ever Heard..' where you hear Curtis Mayfield lifted, 'Easy Rider' as well.
Examples, please! What Curtis Mayfield song is like Purple Haze? What Curtis Mayfield song is like "Foxy Lady"? What Curtis Mayfield song is like "Red House"? etc. I have put you clear examples about those Zeppelin stealings I have talked about. I just think youīre those who have really strong opinions about music, but nothing base on your opinions.
To me it seems, that Zeppelin means personally so much to you, that itīs just the same what facts somebody tells about that band, you just canīt believe them. As I have told before, I have liked a long time Zeppelin and I have nothing against them. I just have never thought theyīre the big revolutioners in music. Theyīve make good albums that I can still listen, thatīs all.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 04 2018 at 09:08
jayem wrote:
Mortte wrote:
I donīt believe the music history and howīs it today would have been really much different without Zeppelin, but I believe it would have been different without Rush.
Shockin' ! Plant's playful and girly tone contrasting with dark power rythm section is very special. Also the amazing grooves in Good Times Bad Times and Black Dog; the mix of wit, fierceness, frivolity and melancholy in (studio's !) No Quarter... A song like The Crunge is unique too. Rush has solid and elaborate stuff but I haven't found the subtle mix of emotions from softness mixed with power I'd get in Zeppelin...
I think you should listen a lot more music of the same time, there was a whole lotta greater bands than Zeppelin.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 04 2018 at 09:11
micky wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ I certainly did listen to your clips, I've seen them numerous times in the past while debating right here on this site over the same issue.
hah.. you have the patience of a saint David.. or that of a teacher.. every year trying to teach a bunch of stoned disconnected children 2+2... or that Zep were FAR from the only thieves of others music, especially the blues masters.
Creativity is nor has ever been realized within a vacuum man.
I am four years younger than you and never used drugs.
Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
Status: Offline
Points: 995
Posted: February 04 2018 at 10:00
Alas ! Having been more than introduced to Crimson, Yes, Floyd, The Nice, ELP, Beatles, Hendrix, Genesis, Egg, Hatfield, Gentle Giant, Soft Machine, Beefhart, Touch, Jethro, Magma, Sheller, Can, Faust, Tangerine ... yet I can't dismiss Zeppelin as a slightly more than average band with no real power and identity.
Even if you're right, I hope you'll be happy at the fact at least I'm still able to feel something when music is on, however mediocre my core nature, mindset, wiring and tastes...
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
Posted: February 04 2018 at 10:32
Mortte wrote:
micky wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ I certainly did listen to your clips, I've seen them numerous times in the past while debating right here on this site over the same issue.
hah.. you have the patience of a saint David.. or that of a teacher.. every year trying to teach a bunch of stoned disconnected children 2+2... or that Zep were FAR from the only thieves of others music, especially the blues masters.
Creativity is nor has ever been realized within a vacuum man.
I am four years younger than you and never used drugs.
hahah.... nice
are you talking about that silly thing called a birthdate ... a big bah and pfff on that
yeah biologically I'm 48 but what does that mean.... zippo man...
mental age..... 48 going on 16.... work hard play hard... never lose the spark and energy of youth
biologically... 48 going on 78 work hard play hard break down much too quickly
cognitively ... hah.... 48 going on 1278 ..... been told on great authority (a voodoo priestess) I've been a bad boy and done many bad things for a damn long time....and am a very old soul kicking around the centruries for all past bad deeds as punishment.. but I've finally achieved true wisdom and my time on earth is soon to end
so what does a birthday really mean man.... jack sh*t
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
Posted: February 04 2018 at 11:13
Mortte wrote:
^Big difference with Zeppelin and those others is that when theyīre playing directly old blues songs, they give the credits to where they belong. Of course itīs mostly trad, because no-one knows who made the originals. I have the original Zeppelin II in my hands and there is said: "Whole Lotta love by Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones & John Bonham". "Bring It On Home by Jimmy Page & Robert Plant". I think you guys didnīt listen the clips I put whole through. Plant took much words directly to Marriot and heīs singing really same way (well yes, Small Faces also put song in their names). I just played "Taurus" to my wife who isnīt in music really much at all and ask what song this is, she aswered "isnīt it Stairway to Heaven?". If you donīt hear it, you must be deaf.
And yet the estate of Randy California lost their suit against Led Zep, because the chord progression is as old as the hills. Obviously, you're not a guitarist and have never heard of descending scales. Here's a 350 year old version of the same scales found at the very beginning of "Taurus" and also "Stairway to Heaven":
As far as what Zeppelin "borrowed" from other artists, it often lyrics that Plant would ramble in bits and pieces and put together in studio. In regards to blues in general, you are an obvious amateur. I have hundreds of recordings from the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s wherein one blues artist borrowed from another without any acknowledgement whatsoever.
Do you know who Big Bill Broonzy is? I doubt that you do, but in any case the blues legend stated that he in effect borrowed from another blues guitarist Charlie Segar when putting together his "version" of the blues classic "Key to the Highway":
"Some of the verses he [Charlie Segar] was singing it in the South the same time as I sung it in the South. And practically all of blues is just a little change from the way that they was sung when I was a kid ... You take one song and make fifty out of it ... just change it a little bit."
Mortte wrote:
Yes, bluesmusicians steal to each others, but they didnīt make millions of others stuff. Also, for example Rolling Stones were the band, who helped old bluesmusicians get more respect. They made gigs with Muddy Waters. So did Johnny Winter & Clapton. I believe Hendrix would have done it also if he would have lived, also he never claimed "Killing Floor" to be his own song, although he really made a own version of it.
Again, your lack of experience in the genre is glaring. Look up Jimmy Page playing with Sonny Boy Williamson in the 60s, just for an instance:
Do you think Lead Belly Ledbetter wrote "Gallows Pole" and Zepellin stole from him? No, the song itself is over 300 years old and is indexed as Child Ballad 95 with 11 variants when Francis James Child compiled his book of ballads in the 19th century.
Mortte wrote:
Still I am not blaming Zeppelin. Thatīs the way it is in this world, theyīve got one of the greatest manangers that time who rise them into fame. I still like their music even they stole things direct to others, I just thing itīs sad in this world everybody who deserved success donīt get it.
Zeppelin versions of songs transcended whatever original material they adapted. One only has to listen to "When the Levee Breaks" (for which they did give credit for) and the original by the great Memphis Minnie. Except for the lyrics there is really nothing the same between the two versions; in fact the Zeppelin version of the song is an innovative composition of progressive blues, perhaps the greatest blues song released in the 70s. Even if you listen to a more faithful adaption of Blind Willie Johnson's blistering "Nobody's Fault But Mine", it is certainly given such a Zep treatment that I absolutely love both versions.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
Posted: February 04 2018 at 13:55
indeed! Don't see many of those these days in the new and 'improved' PA's. A fine example of classic PA's posting smackdown.. only missing a few insults and stab wound to the back to finish off the poor and mismatched haha
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 04 2018 at 22:46
Nobody has still give me any proves to the essential accusation made here. That Jimi and others steal as direct as Zeppelin. No Jimi song or other artist song, that is so clear stealing from somebody else has put here.
Also, even bluesmusicians steal from each others, they always made own versions. And as I said before, they never made a millions from their music as Zeppelin did. Yes, Plant changes the words, he put times instead of years in that Howling Wolf-piece. Also, Page was in the back of Sonny Boy Williamson in the sixties, he was then quite unknown session musician and I donīt think that performing really progressed the career of Sonny Boy Williamson. When Zeppelin was in the success in the seventies, they could have perform with Muddy or some other bluesmusician and with that they would respect the roots that brought them their millions and also helped those musicians with a very little success of that time. But they didnīt do that.
Hereīs list of Zeppelin covers and borrowings from wikipedia, they just donīt steal from the old bluesmen, there are also artists from the same times like Jake Holmes and Moby Grabe, if Hendrix and others do exactly same, just make a same kind of list into wikipedia:
But this is of course useless. Youīre bunch of men against me alone, who thinks no-one can say anything bad about Zeppelin. I am no rich b**tard to have enough money to buy all old wax blues, but I do have listened lots of old blues and music in commonly. But all of you, you can think of me what you like.
Truth is that musicians differ as we all. Some are just unscrupulous than others. Next thing you will say Obama and Trump has been just the same. Both just are rich and want the power.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65247
Posted: February 04 2018 at 22:54
Nothing wrong with your perspective, we were all there, many still are. Zeppelin were thieves. So be it. Accuse, suggest, throw ripe fruit, at the end of the day everyone knows a one-in-a-million group of players when they hear it.
Stole? Yeah, they stole the show every friggin' night they played with more spontaneous mastery, power, feeling, and magic than any of their peers. They blew 'em all away. Consistently.
Edited by Atavachron - February 04 2018 at 22:54
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
Posted: February 05 2018 at 20:35
Mortte wrote:
Nobody has still give me any proves to the essential accusation made here. That Jimi and others steal as direct as Zeppelin. No Jimi song or other artist song, that is so clear stealing from somebody else has put here.
First, Jimi Hendrix, who I adore, covered hundreds of songs live from artists who never received royalties until after Hendrix died.
Or perhaps you mean like Deep Purple stealing their greatest hit "Smoke on the Water" from Astrud Gilberto and Gil Evans? Or that nearly every great Deep Purple song was stolen?
Or how about the Eagles stealing the chord progression of "Hotel California" from Jethro Tull's "We Used to Know"? Or George Harrison lifting "My Sweet Lord" directly from the Chiffons' "He's So Fine"? I could go on forever, but I'll just mention Rob Paravonian's proof that nearly every rock ballad was based on Pachelbel's "Canon in D":
Mortte wrote:
Also, even bluesmusicians steal from each others, they always made own versions.
Your comment is amazingly inane, and devoid of fact. It merely proves that you should preclude yourself from discussing blues music. I could explain (very slowly) the cannibalistic nature of the blues from the early 20th century on, but I'll just reiterate from earlier what Big Bill Broonzy said about blues theft, and that the legendary Jelly Roll Morton admitted to stealing "The St. Louis Blues" from W.C. Handy, who stole that song and also "Jogo Blues" from guitarist Guy Williams, who had failed to copyright the songs. Jelly Roll stated simply that W.C. Handy couldn't play the blues for sh*t, and so Handy stole "St. Louis Blues" from Williams, and also "The Memphis Blues" from Tony Jackson. Through a shady deal with his attorney, Morton eventually bought the copyrights for two of the most famous blues songs of all time, "St. Louis Blues" and "Memphis Blues", for cheap and made them his.
Also, have you ever heard the blues song "Ain't Nobody's Business"? The original copyright in 1922 was by Porter Grainger and Everett Robbins. Did you know that there's roughly 20 different versions of that song that do not credit Grainger and Evans? Mississippi John Hurt had a great version titled "It Ain't Nobody's Business" on some albums and on others it is titled "Nobody's Dirty Business", it all depended on the mood he was in.
Mortte wrote:
And as I said before, they never made a millions from their music as Zeppelin did. Yes, Plant changes the words, he put times instead of years in that Howling Wolf-piece.
Are you aware that Howlin' Wolf borrowed lyrics for his song "Killin' Floor" from Skip James' "Hard Time Killin' Floor"? Of course you aren't aware. Have you listened to Zeppelin's "Lemon Song"? It uses lyrics from Howlin' Wolf's version, but the arrangement and delivery are completely different songs. Also, other lyics in the same song are borrowed from Robert Johnson, who in turn borrowed them from Arthur McKay. So Howlin' Wolf borrowed lyrics from Skip James, Robert Johnson borrowed from Arthur McKay, and Zeppelin borrowed from both. Get out the lawyers!
Mortte wrote:
Also, Page was in the back of Sonny Boy Williamson in the sixties, he was then quite unknown session musician and I donīt think that performing really progressed the career of Sonny Boy Williamson. When Zeppelin was in the success in the seventies, they could have perform with Muddy or some other bluesmusician and with that they would respect the roots that brought them their millions and also helped those musicians with a very little success of that time. But they didnīt do that.
Again, the ignorance is so thick one can cut it with a knife. Sonny Boy Williamson died in 1965. Did you want Jimmy to prop up his dead body on stage in the 70s? And you crack me up with saying that Page was an "unknown session musician". Page was THE session guitarist and played on songs from the Who, the Kinks, The Stones, Donovan, John Mayall, Marianne Faithful, Van Morrison & Them, Brenda Lee and Petula Clark. You can even hear Page on The Beatles' film a Hard Day's Night, for Christ's sake. Then he joined the Yardbirds in 1966, who had toured with Sonny Boy Williamson the previous year. How "unknown" was Page? He actually turned down joining the Yardbirds in late 1964 out of loyalty to Clapton, and turned them down again at the start of 1965 and he suggested Jeff Beck instead, because Page was making so much money doing session work that he would lose money touring with The Yardbirds.
Mortte wrote:
And Dark-Elf, I am really sorry if I hurt you feelings when revealing the lack of your knowledge about Rush and itīs influence to music.
Your impotent attempt at a put down is rather ironic, considering Rush pretended to be Canadian Zeppelin-lite for much of the 70s. In fact, you don't have to believe me, but you should listen to Alex Lifeson (he is the lead guitarist of Rush, if you weren't aware):
"Of any guitarist, Jimmy Page was my biggest influence. I wanted to look, think and play like him. Zeppelin had a heavy influence on Rush during our early days. Pages loose style of playing showed an immense confidence, and there are no rules to his playing."
I am done here.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 05 2018 at 20:37
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 22:40
^At first, I am gladly admitting you know much more about blues than I. Anyway I think itīs quite unfair to make comparison those old blues stealings to Zeppelin, those old bluesmusicians were poor and those stealings was many the only way to get the everyday meal. As you already have said, Page was already in the sixties well paid session musician, so reason of his stealings really wasnīt everyday meal. I think the main reason of those ugly credit makings specially in the two first Zeppelin albums was, that Page want to success and he just havenīt got enough own ideas that time. Page was a respected session musician along the other musicians, but to the big audience he was unknown that time. With Yardbirds he didnīt make it, only album (little games) wasnīt a huge seller although they have some success in the US. Also Zeppelin made a great "Houses Of Holy"-album later, in which they really stand on their own. But I think their creativity low in the next albums, their quality is not as great as in Houses, also they start to steal again.
Also, when youīre saying the credit stealing was the tradition in blues, why didnīt Rolling Stones do that as much as Zeppelin? Yes, I know they have nanker-phelge pseydonym for their stealings, but still in their first albums 12 songs only 3 is credited to them and rest to the original song makers, in the second album same. In the first Zeppelin album there are two songs credited to originals although almost whole album is stealed to someone, in the second all is credited to Zep. Are you thinking Stones were just so stupid?
No, I really didnīt want Page to bring any old bluesmusicians dead body to the stage. As I said before, he could have done a favour to the bluesmusicians that are still living, just like Eric Clapton, Johnny Winter and Rolling Stones did. I donīt know he havenīt ever done any public appreciation to any bluesmusician during Zeppelin or after that, if I am wrong just tell me. Yes, I have Zeppelin Celebration day where Plant says about Trampled Underfoot that itīs their version of Terraplane Blues.
Also, that little I has listened the huge blues tradition, I donīt think there are stealings and recyclings that much what is commonly thinking. Songs like Sweet Home Chicago, Milk Cow Blues, Dust My Broom etc were many bluesmen repertoire, but they all have also own stuff and whatīs most important, they all really have own style. Of course blues is based much in the same chords and same chordrotations, so itīs understood why somebodies are saying itīs all just sounds the same. Also, it really make hard to say which is stealing and which is not. But back to Zeppelin, their style really wasnīt unique in their time, as I have before said, there were many bands with same style before Zeppelin, the same time as they were, and after them. Also, if you changed Stewards voice to Plants in Beckīs Truth, it could have been Zeppelinīs first album. That album really has a same style and sounds as it will be year after in Zeppelinīs first.
Of course Lifeson admits their Zeppelin influences, because heīs nice guy that Page isnīt. Rush first album is just another Zeppelin influenced album. My point was what happened after that album, Rush went into really own direction and become predecessors of neoprog. Zeppelin was always just recyclers of stuff that has already made. But have to say they of course still made good sounding albums and music.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 22:52
About that Jimi comment Jimi anyway released four albums during his lifetime which no-one has still said any direct stealings (five songs credited to someone else, two Redding, one Earl King, one Dylan & two to Miles). Of course you can say he stealed Red House to somebody, cause itīs ordinary 12 bar blues made already millions times. I donīt know nothing about his live performance roalty payings, but anyway I think if itīs somebody to blame it was heīs mananger Mike Jefferey. Jimi himself was a person, who loaned money to the people who never pay him back.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 23:07
And about that 350 old scales that are in Taurus and Stairway, what do you think will happend if I put that beginning and compose totally own song after that and it will become a hit? Do you think Page just thought "well thatīs just old piece I also borrowed"? No, I will have a lawsuit from Pageīs lawyers in that minute he will hear that song specially now when they won that Taurus case.
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20029
Posted: February 06 2018 at 05:20
Mortte wrote:
jayem wrote:
Mortte wrote:
I donīt believe the music history and howīs it today would have been really much different without Zeppelin, but I believe it would have been different without Rush.
Shockin' ! Plant's playful and girly tone contrasting with dark power rythm section is very special. Also the amazing grooves in Good Times Bad Times and Black Dog; the mix of wit, fierceness, frivolity and melancholy in (studio's !) No Quarter... A song like The Crunge is unique too. Rush has solid and elaborate stuff but I haven't found the subtle mix of emotions from softness mixed with power I'd get in Zeppelin...
I think you should listen a lot more music of the same time, there was a whole lotta greater bands than Zeppelin.
" subtle mix of emotions from softness mixed with power" - nicely summed up sir.
Joined: March 18 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 291
Posted: February 06 2018 at 05:45
I think it depends on where your music loyalty and preference lies. If you are into progressive music Rush wins hands down. If you are into 70's Rock music then Zeppelin are iconic. I love early Black Sabbath but I would hardly put them up against any good progressive band of the time relating to personal preference as my preference is for progressive music and always has been. Hell, I love Bob Dylan's and CSN music but if I had to take something to a desert Island it wouldn't be Dylan or CSN. If I want to charge my adrenaline I listen to Zepp or the like, if I want to charge my brain I listen to Rush - if I simply want to mellow out I listen to Dylan or Tom Petty.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65247
Posted: February 07 2018 at 02:08
^ yeaaahh I don't know, I think for many people here ~ well okay I'll speak for myself ~ it's not really subjective: Rush were plenty heavy and Zeppelin were plenty progressive. Both a superb and rare mix of uniquely talented people with unheard of musical chemistry. When I say I think Zep were somewhat superior it is my musician's opinion gathered from decades of listening, practicing, playing, writing, and gigging rather than my loyalties or preferences.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Rush vs Led Zeppelin
Topic Options
Atavachron wrote:
