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Let's see, the most important and influential rock band of all time, versus a band in which the members were more influential and important when they played in previous bands.
uduwudu wrote:
But a country and western band who attained acceptance because they sounded so white and non- threatening to the middle classes (contemporary cultural mores dictated this) and their competition was minimal. Pat Boone?
Evidently, you weren't around in the 60s. Reply back when you've actually done some research. Your comment is misguided to the point of embarrassment.
Oh I have. Alas, cited references unavailable as academic presentation not anticipated.
But what competition was there that was established in the minds of the 60s public? It is VERY well documented that the "race" records of the 50s had been negated and bland whitey pop dominated. Hence why The Beatles sounded both fresh and acceptable to a mainstream western public that had been socialized in a racist environment. Not that the Beatles are anything to do with that - far from it. But socially reassuring C and W made The Beatles mainly acceptable. I have read some commentary contemporary to the times where some black people were not impressed. But the varying social cultural values and impact have been er, whitewashed. Anyway a listen to the BBC material and the early records reveals a country influence (Ringo's a big C and W fan). Of course that changed (for the most part).
uduwudu wrote:
Versus a bunch of guys who could play rings around most and did so in a format that had been universally approved. And their competition was ... well, their prog loving audience deserted for whatever reason and times meant laying epics in 5 mins. Time to may attention.
Their prog-loving audience deserted Asia because they became nothing more than an AOR arena band intent on moving product. Commercial pablum from high-end musicians out to make a buck.
> Ah, but the audiences had deserted long before then. Clearly times had changed and Asia moved with the times. As did everyone else. Also the public perception was also analogous with the times. Audience sophistication was both more aware and more cynical. The boundaries of music and business had blurred.
uduwudu wrote:
Apparently if one band plays songs with whatever guitar sound (Revolution? - ye gods!) then it's kisses all around, but when another band does the same (plays songs and with way more sophistication) then its hate and despise time. We are ever so inconsistent.
There is no inconsistency. As I stated earlier, every member of Asia played in bands (Yes, ELP, etc.) and composed music that was far more important and influential previously than the sell out they became. How you can even keep a straight face while listening to "The Heat of the Moment" is beyond me. As far as the Beatles, there legacy is in tact and their amount of innovations and compositional ability is well noted, so I won't waste my time here going over them.
P.S. That The Beatles influenced Yes is well documented in many interviews. There's a brief intro by Jon Anderson before Yes plays this Beatles' cover...
Heat is a fine a fine song. I can't keep a straight face with Revolution with that horrible guitar sound. It'd have been nice if Clapton (or Jeff Beck) had done more (any) work with The Beatles as they both knew how to get decent guitar sounds from the limited kit available at the time. And yes The Beatles have many fine compositions, very well done. They also came from a period in time where the sheer quantity of recordings was a lot less than 30 years ago (never mind now).
Sadly Asia are assessed by reactionary views that condemn the band for what they are not. I'm quite fine with Tales, Heat, Owner of a Lonely Heart, Gates, Awaken and all sorts of work these guys created in their various incarnations - I figure they know their music best. Anyway it may be viewed that Heat Of The Moment is actually (lyrically) reinforcing the 80s "values" (And now you find yourself in '82 etc). Carl Palmer's drums and percussion add so much detail into the recordings as well... There is something to be said for the sell out thing (thinking of that awful video for Don't Cry). But Asia had to rely on a new audience as the '70s crowd became '80s yuppies.
Had Asia not been faced with their audience adopting Hall Of Fame attitudes then they would not have become so discouraged so quickly. Had they been so determined to push product they would have kept going. As it happens its some minor labels that manipulated licensing laws to foist some very inferior live recordings on the public - so it seems like there is product pushing. Or there actually is product pushing but not with the full consent of Asia. I've a review in their section somewhere - an atrocious production of quite a good performance.
The Fantasia in Tokyo (I've only got the DVD) show a fine symphonic rock band in action. Who else could cover King Crimson and The Buggles?
I'm well aware of The Beatles influence on Yes and everybody Including Fripp. Musically I think it may be the absence of blues in The Beatles music that contributed to so many bands cutting that umbilical cord beginning with the prog bands. It may be the presence of country melody in The Beatles that prompted Don Henley to remark "Eagles picked up where The Beatles left off". I'll let anyone else make of that one what they will.
Poor old John Wetton did wonders with King Crimson. His sideman roles led to forming Asia with Downes. And yes there was a lot of record company (John Kalodner) over the shoulder supervision of song writing which surprised me.
I did quite like Downe's remark with Asia recordings ("start with the first and keep going until you find the one you don't like then stop). Unfortunately I am not familiar at all with the John Payne incarnation at all (I usually get sold on anything that has Steve Howe involved) but from what I've read here it seems to be something to check out.
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 20:13
uduwudu wrote:
Oh I have. Alas, cited references unavailable as academic presentation not anticipated.
But what competition was there that was established in the minds of the 60s public? It is VERY well documented that the "race" records of the 50s had been negated and bland whitey pop dominated. Hence why The Beatles sounded both fresh and acceptable to a mainstream western public that had been socialized in a racist environment. Not that the Beatles are anything to do with that - far from it. But socially reassuring C and W made The Beatles mainly acceptable. I have read some commentary contemporary to the times where some black people were no impressed. But the varying social cultural values and impact have been er, whitewashed. Anyway a listen to the BBC material and the early records reveals a country influence (Ringo's a big C and W fan). Of course that changed (for the most part).
You are conflating eras, confusing musical styles, and even mixing metaphors. You also know little of The Beatles early discography. George Harrison had a career-long friendship with the great Carl Perkins, and the style they emulated on the few songs of that genre (like Perkins' "Matchbox") are referred to more as "rockabilly", but to infer they played Country Western, or that people who listened to Country Western listened to The Beatles, or that Country Western made it easier to accept or listen to The Beatles is patent nonsense. By the 1960s, those people who listened to Country Western wouldn't be caught dead listening to rock bands like the Stones or the Beatles. Oil and Water. You are referring to a previous generation of entertainers like Elvis Presley or Pat Boone at the inception of rock and roll, and you are referring to the appropriation of blues and R&B by marketable white performers in the 1950s, not the 60s (and the further the longhaired Beatles progressed, the more parents couldn't stand them -- the Beach Boys were the virginal rock ideal). Steve Howe was more into straight Country Western, noting on several occasions his love of Chet Atkins.
uduwudu wrote:
Ah, but the audiences had deserted long before then. Clearly times had changed and Asia moved with the times. As did everyone else. Also the public perception was also analogous with the times. Audience sophistication was both more aware and more cynical. The boundaries of music and business had blurred.
The prog audience moved away from Asia like they moved away from Genesis, because they were no longer prog, but as soon as Yes reformed with Howe, the fans, including myself, went to sold out shows (like on the splendid Union Tour). Asia plodded on throughout the 1990s playing in bowling alleys and county fairs.
uduwudu wrote:
And yes The Beatles have many fine compositions, very well done. They also came from a period in time where the sheer quantity of recordings was a lot less than 30 years ago (never mind now).
What is your point? The Beatles sold more albums in the 1990s than they did in the 60s; in fact, in the period between 1991 to 2008 they sold over 57 million albums (and that was before the Remasters came out) . So much for the sheer quantity of music.
uduwudu wrote:
Sadly Asia are assessed by reactionary views that condemn the band for what they are not. I'm quite fine with Tales, Heat, Owner of a Lonely Heart, Gates, Awaken and all sorts of work these guys created in their various incarnations - I figure they know their music best. Anyway it may be viewed that Heat Of The Moment is actually (lyrically) reinforcing the 80s "values" (And now you find yourself in '82 etc). Carl Palmer's drums and percussion add so much detail into the recordings as well... There is something to be said for the sell out thing (thinking of that awful video for Don't Cry). But Asia had to rely on a new audience as the '70s crowd became '80s yuppies.
Reactionary views? You bring together prog-rock superstars, you expect a level of music based on their abilities. Instead, Asia brought arena pablum. I remember hearing them for the first time and saying "WTF?" It was a joke. What a waste of talent. Evidently, enough people thought the same way and they couldn't rely on their MTV hits to sustain anything.
uduwudu wrote:
I'm well aware of The Beatles influence on Yes and everybody Including Fripp. Musically I think it may be the absence of blues in The Beatles music that contributed to so many bands cutting that umbilical cord beginning with the prog bands. It may be the presence of country melody in The Beatles that prompted Don Henley to remark "Eagles picked up where The Beatles left off". I'll let anyone else make of that one what they will.
You seem stuck on this country thing. It's funny. They played a couple songs by Carl Perkins, and "Kansas City" (actually a Lieber/Stoller composition) and "Act Naturally" played by Buck Owens over their first 5 albums. They also played a lot of Little Richard and Chuck Berry. By the time Rubber Soul and Revolver came out they had completely evolved away from having to rely on covers. I think the country covers afforded Ringo a chance to sing without having to overtax his limited vocal talent.
As far as blues, The Beatles actually started playing more of it the further they went on, particularly after Sgt. Peppers (Revolution, Yer Blues, Why Don't We Do It In the Road, Come Together, I Want You (She's So Heavy), I, Me, Mine, I've Got A Feeling, One After 909. For You Blue, etc.), so they didn't cut the string, but took existing musical concepts beyond their original intentions - and one would definitely refer to I Want You (She's So Heavy) as progressive blues composition.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Actually no. 82 in that line of the song refers to a nightclub called the 82. It's just a coincidence that the song and album were released in 1982. And no I'm not joking. Google it if you don't believe me. ;)
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 01 2017 at 19:29
Joined: June 18 2009
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Posted: February 01 2017 at 21:49
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">[And now you find yourself in '82 etc]</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> </span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Actually no. 82 in that line of the song refers to a nightclub called the 82. It's just a coincidence that the song and album were released in 1982. And no I'm not joking. Google it if you don't believe me. ;)</span>
Yet, I think they have been changing that number live according to the year they are singing the song.
Boy how we so push for the Beatles to be prog, OP said it......They are not thank God. From a musical performance view Asia all day long, neither of the Fab Four can hold a candle to the musicianship of the members of Asia.
Had other bands performed the Beatles songs I might have gave those songs some attention..
Like MMEB bettered certain Dylan/Springsteen songs :) Jon Anderson & Co. made "Every Little Thing" stellar, Beatles could only dream of stuff like that.
Btw, Lennon admired "Whiter Shade of Pale" very high, wished he had written songs like it. Rick Wakeman´s instrumental version of "Eleanor Rigby" on a video (1989 ?) is brilliant.
I give 3 stars to "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver" ´cos they are great pop records, but the album after these gets one. It´s like kids´music. Never took them as prog, just rock/pop band no more no less. And they just lost they magic when turning to too serious in musicianship, "Abbey Road" especially is just dull. Progressive ? Rock ? Give me a break. King Crimson, COLOSSEUM is rock. George Harrison´s "Something" is the only song I admire, one of most beautiful they did.
At the the same time real serious and way talented musicians such as Jimi Hendrix, Miles Davis, Keith Emerson, Gary Brooker were creating something really interesting and different "pop" music.
ASIA´s 2 first album are the very finest the utterly dull early 80´s produced. ASIA beats all AOR (-oriented) totoros by light years. Except Boston and Journey´s "Infinity" but these are from the 70´s actually. Anyway, they are as prog as possibly can get, that after-prog/NW/neo-pop or whatever BS music industry could ever produce.
They 2 are perfect albums in everything. And the most melodic from the 80´s. Huge respect since, especially for Carl Palmer, rock´s best drummer still going strong.
Where these silly contests arise ? Give me strenght.
John Wetton, you are the greatest :) RIP
Edited by Son.of.Tiresias - February 11 2017 at 10:24
You may see a smile on Tony Banks´ face but that´s unlikely.
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Asia versus The Beatles
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uduwudu wrote:
I went back and read it again and yeah, don't get where he was going with that. Maybe he can expound more clearly.
Like MMEB bettered certain Dylan/Springsteen songs :) Jon Anderson & Co. made "Every Little Thing" stellar, Beatles could only dream of stuff like that. 