The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

^ that's not my home page. I let the domain lapse last year and it seems someone else has adopted it. Thanks for noticing, I've removed the link.

^ there is only two pages in the Bible anyway re Noah so a two hour movie is bound to have license to thrill. Anyway I enjoyed it for the most part, had a modernistic industrial feel to it. As for respected religious groups.....pffft.

Edited by Chris S - May 18 2014 at 23:15

Well the major flooding is probably true. 

The mile deep sheet of ice the covered most of Europe must have gone somewhere when it melted. 

Until fairly recently I've been uncomfortable calling myself an atheist, preferring the label agnostic. I don't know that there is no Godlike entity thing, but I don't have to be completely sure to call myself an atheist.

So this is me kind of officially coming out of the closet, although I guess I came out of the closet in PA long ago.

I am still agnostic (somewhat of a soft atheist, but would sooner believe in no God than God, as are many people who call themselves atheist, in that I cannot know for sure, but I think too many people assume that all atheists must know for sure (absolutely) and therefore assume that they make truth claims much like believers do. I don't think that Santa Claus exists either, but I can't say for sure. ;)

I still need courage in making my views clear to the Jehovah's Witnesses who come to the door, various religious friends who try to get me to come to church, and stating honestly to my wife that I do not believe in God. I still find it embarrassing when talking to believers saying that I am not a believer.

Familiarizing myself with the "new atheists" and various related people, especially in the sciences, has made me more comfortable in my lack of belief.   When I was growing up a friend of mine would call me a nihilist, but that was not an accurate description. I've joined a group of atheists, and am become more comfortable expressing my lack of belief instead of pretending amongst religious people that I share similar views. I have no problem accepting people as friends who are religious, and I would hope that they would feel the same about accepting non-religious, non-theistic people as friends.

My dream is, though, to move somewhere where religiosity is less accepted as rational and is less commonplace. That said, I still like to go to the Anglican church sometimes, and I haven't hidden my lack of belief with those people (they are much more accepting than the Pentecostal church I used to attend with my wife sometimes). Most people I know around where I live, though, are evangelical Christians, and my wife was Pentecostal and her old friends are evangelicals.


Edited by Logan - January 22 2017 at 20:50

Logan wrote: Until fairly recently I've been uncomfortable calling myself an atheist, preferring the label agnostic. I don't know that there is no Godlike entity thing, but I don't have to be completely sure to call myself an atheist. So this is me kind of officially coming out of the closet, although I guess I came out of the closet in PA long ago. I am still agnostic (somewhat of a soft atheist, but would sooner believe in no God than God, as are many people who call themselves atheist, in that I cannot know for sure, but I think too many people assume that all atheists must know for sure (absolutely) and therefore assume that they make truth claims much like believers do. I don't think that Santa Claus exists either, but I can't say for sure. ;) I still need courage in making my views clear to the Jehovah's Witnesses who come to the door, various religious friends who try to get me to come to church, and stating honestly to my wife that I do not believe in God. I still find it embarrassing when talking to believers saying that I am not a believer. Familiarizing myself with the "new atheists" and various related people, especially in the sciences, has made me more comfortable in my lack of belief.   When I was growing up a friend of mine would call me a nihilist, but that was not an accurate description. I've joined a group of atheists, and am become more comfortable expressing my lack of belief instead of pretending amongst religious people that I share similar views. I have no problem accepting people as friends who are religious, and I would hope that they would feel the same about accepting non-religious, non-theistic people as friends. My dream is, though, to move somewhere where religiosity is less accepted as rational and is less commonplace. That said, I still like to go to the Anglican church sometimes, and I haven't hidden my lack of belief with those people (they are much more accepting than the Pentecostal church I used to attend with my wife sometimes). Most people I know around where I live, though, are evangelical Christians, and my wife was Pentecostal and her old friends are evangelicals.

I would ask some seriously tough questions about attributes of god and expect sensible answers.  Mull an answer over in your head, if it satisfies the intellect then bring it down to your heart.  If it satisfies the mind and is rooted in Love then it just may be true.  If it doesn’t satisfy the mind or heart disregard it.

From the other tread about whether Einstein was a believer or agnostic it may seem that he flip flopped.  I don’t think that’s the case, I think his position was that he didn’t believe in a god that’s depicted by most people and leaders of religious institutions.

One aspect of God would be that of unconditional love.  If Jesus exhibited unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified then how can a god be any less?

Unconditional means absolute without any strings attached.  If that’s so, then how can god hand out punishments?  He can’t!  Then were left with a tough question of a seeming paradox of punishments and calamities that must be satisfied.

 

^^ Can't use usual quote functional as I'm getting huge walls of code. With Einstein, sure, that may well be a fair way to look at it. I've had a similar Spinoza-like notion of God before.

You said "One aspect of God would be that of unconditional love. If Jesus exhibited unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified then how can a god be any less?"

I may be missing your point, but such if questions require various assumptions. If there is a God, we don't know that unconditional love is a requirement and I would say that various religious texts (I have read the bible and Quran) seem to indicate that his love is not unconditional. Furthermore, we don't know that Jesus felt unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified, but okay, you said if, so let's assume so.... To me that does not readily indicate a God that loved his son very much. Even if Jesus felt that, who I don't believe to be divine, that does not indicate a loving God. Am I also expected to believe in the holy trinity/ divinity of Jesus?

I doubt the veracity of the bible, and if conjecture can be quite problematic.

Logan wrote: ^^ Can't use usual quote functional as I'm getting huge walls of code. With Einstein, sure, that may well be a fair way to look at it. I've had a similar Spinoza-like notion of God before. You said "One aspect of God would be that of unconditional love. If Jesus exhibited unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified then how can a god be any less?" I may be missing your point, but such if questions require various assumptions. If there is a God, we don't know that unconditional love is a requirement and I would say that various religious texts (I have read the bible and Quran) seem to indicate that his love is not unconditional. Furthermore, we don't know that Jesus felt unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified, but okay, you said if, so let's assume so.... To me that does not readily indicate a God that loved his son very much. Even if Jesus felt that, who I don't believe to be divine, that does not indicate a loving God. Am I also expected to believe in the holy trinity/ divinity of Jesus? I doubt the veracity of the bible, and if conjecture can be quite problematic.

Didn’t Jesus display unconditional love by uttering these words while impaled on the cross? “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”

Jesus loved the world so much that he let himself be crucified.  He could have easily avoided it.

If you’re going to conjure up a divine superior being in your head I would hope that unconditional love would be one of the prerequisites.   Why on earth would anyone want to worship a prick?

CosmicVibration wrote: Logan wrote: ^^ Can't use usual quote functional as I'm getting huge walls of code. With Einstein, sure, that may well be a fair way to look at it. I've had a similar Spinoza-like notion of God before. You said "One aspect of God would be that of unconditional love. If Jesus exhibited unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified then how can a god be any less?" I may be missing your point, but such if questions require various assumptions. If there is a God, we don't know that unconditional love is a requirement and I would say that various religious texts (I have read the bible and Quran) seem to indicate that his love is not unconditional. Furthermore, we don't know that Jesus felt unconditional love while being tortured, spat on and crucified, but okay, you said if, so let's assume so.... To me that does not readily indicate a God that loved his son very much. Even if Jesus felt that, who I don't believe to be divine, that does not indicate a loving God. Am I also expected to believe in the holy trinity/ divinity of Jesus? I doubt the veracity of the bible, and if conjecture can be quite problematic. idn’t Jesus display unconditional love by uttering these words while impaled on the cross? “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” Jesus loved the world so much that he let himself be crucified. He could have easily avoided it. If you’re going to conjure up a divine superior being in your head I would hope that unconditional love would be one of the prerequisites.   Why on earth would anyone want to worship a prick?

It's bad enough, in sense to have to accept that there is a God, but then people even expect one to accept and be respectful of religions, and feel ashamed if you say something negative about those beliefs (or in some places, killed for it).   God, in some form, may exist, fine, but no-one should expect to convince me with religious dogma and doggerel, or indeed to convince me at all.   

If there is a god, or gods, then I would like the idea of it or them having unconditional love, but that doesn't mean that if we are to assume that there is a god or gods that it or they must or should conform to our desires. One compounds assumptions. I do not believe in the veracity of the Bible nor the divinity of Jesus, so what he is purported to have said has little sway in trying to make a case for a God. God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, and to further complicate matters, ideas of what God is vary. Some people say it's the cosmos, which is a fairly nebulous idea, and not only do not anthromorphise God, but do not attribute intelligence to God.

If Jesus loved the world so much that he was prepared to die for it, well other people could have the same neuroses. If I said, I love the world so much that I'm going to blow myself up, I don't think that would convince many people of a loving God. People would think I was crazy. And no, I'm not equating this to suicide bombers who do it because they think that it's an instant ticket to heaven. If Jesus had so much faith in an all-loving, kind-hearted God, why would you even need to ask him to forgive those people? Why too would Jesus question with "God, oh God, why hast though forsaken me?"

Furthermore, why the concept of hell?

Many people do and have believed in a divine being that seems to me to be a prick. As for why, commonly because they were indoctrinated with those beliefs.
Punishment comes into to a great many systems of belief.

I knew a born-again Christian who would tell me that all people would go to hell if they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. That doesn't sound compassionate to me. I have a friend, or had as he stopped contacting me after letting me know, who joined Islam, which is why I started studying Islamic texts. In the Quran it says "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help" and "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

To me this does not indicate an all loving and compassionate God, yet people follow religions that espouse violence and intolerance. Incidentally, Islam does not accept the divinity of Jesus either. So fine, send me to hell and chop off my naughty bits (I mean every part of me that is naughty), I choose reason over faith, and I don't want some kind of heaven that is like some divine North Korea (to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens) where you eternally worship Him.

I am a secular rationalist and I wish more people were. That said, I feel like re-reading Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.

Edited by Logan - January 23 2017 at 12:00

CosmicVibration wrote: EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: ^ has either God or Jesus ever show you any sign of affection or love????????? other than what has been preached to you................ Yes, I’ve had a few personal experiences.   And they are just that, personal.. However, God is both personal and impersonal.  I’ll share some universal aspects of the divine, that of peace and joy.   In a certain sense these would be personal in that I’ve personally experience them. I’ve been practicing various meditation techniques for over 20 years now.  When my focus is right the first thing that happens is an overwhelming sense of peace ensues.  This peace intensifies to the point that is seems that nothing can penetrate it and nothing else really matters.   The entire world could be crumbling all around me and it wouldn’t matter, my peace would not be broken. In this high state of overwhelming peace joy starts percolating from within.  This joy also intensifies to extreme levels. You know, sometimes I think god is a drug pusher.  LOL..   I get hooked and then for many days sometimes weeks and months of meditation sessions I may experience a little peace and maybe a little joy but still it’s faint and pale in comparison to the last big fix.  The former serious high starts to become a distant memory.  And then one day bam! a new high!  So I’m hooked... I keep on coming back for more. Yep, gods a drug pusher.. so put that in your pipe and smoke it