The Original Proto Electronic Prog

EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music............... Some people can't catch the irony in their own words. Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff. I tend to differentiate between appreciating something and actually liking it. I can appreciate Stockhausen and his music without liking it, and I can make the same observation of Roine Stolt and Miles Davis. This is why I tend to avoid making negative judgemental criticism of any piece of music - however, even if I like something I'll often only say so if it adds something to the conversation or is in response to a specific question.  This is also why I'll never state a preference between vinyl and CD - that I buy both formats regularly is all the information anyone really needs to know. Same is true it I own more than one album by an artist as I'm not quite dumb enough (yet) to buy a second album if I didn't like the first (though it is perfectly possible that I subsequently disliked the second). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whether I like or dislike this particular piece of music is somewhat immaterial if we are simply talking about whether it is an example of proto-electronic prog or not... that it is an example of 1950s experimental music is beyond doubt and its use of electronics is important to the development electronic music in general even though it wasn't entirely composed using electronic sounds nor was it the first or most ground-breaking. Many other pieces from the that era are just as important.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To be regarded as Proto Electronic Prog then we have to view that in context of what Progressive Electronic music is and how that differs from all other forms of Electronic Music (including that composed by Cage, Riley, Ligetti and a whole raft of others such as Wendy Carlos and the all folks who worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop), and while this may not at first appear obvious, the key element there is the very close association with Progressive Rock, and here I would stress the Rock element of that, if it ain't Rock then it cannot be Prog Rock. Similar things happen in Jazz Rock/Fusion (some people forget the Fusion bit must include some Rock element to be regarded as Progressive Rock) and Avant-Prog (Avant Garde without the Rock element cannot seriously be considered as fitting Avant-Prog, it's just Avant Garde). For Poème électronique to be some kind of precursor to the Progressive Electronic subgenre then there has to be a rock association, as opposed to an experimental or electronic(ish) association otherwise Stravinsky and Bach would be regarded as Proto Prog (which they aren't and never can be). So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.

EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: My response regarding the 30 y/o age was in response to zravkapt and not to yourself  either "you're"or not "your".

EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: So why do you quote Wiki at all.....

EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote: So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about. My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.

With over 20 subgenres, it is beyond reason that "everyone should listen to the same music" on this website. This site is free thinking and of free speech. I, unlike Dean, make distinctions between what I consider to be acoustic electronic manipulated sounds and music. You proposed that Varese's electronically manipulated sounds are music. Technically, it is music, but very poor music, IMO. And that's the key phrase: "In my opinion." You have stated your's clearly but offer no reason why this piece is good, other than the fact that you personally like it, and have stated little to support your claim that it's Proto Electronic Prog.

Edited by SteveG - December 15 2016 at 07:45

I've started to investigate this sort of music in the last couple of months after wondering just what one could have listened to fifty years ago, and have been very surprised to discover just how experimental it all was compared to the rock music of the time. The composers seem to be trying to escape from the rigid sets of notes, timings and orchestral tones and develop something completely new, but as a result of just concentrating on hearing the absorbing atmospheres I am now beginning to pay more attention to the patterns of sounds going on around me and wondering just what is and isn't music. My favourite piece from Varèse at the moment is Déserts - 1954 and he was incorporating industrial noise and feedback into an orchestral piece . The only problem with the Decca Complete Works CD I have is that some faint hearted engineer turned the tape sections down so low they sound like they're in the next room, but fortunately they're separate tracks on the CD so having done a lossless import to iTunes I could set them for a 40% volume boost. Now when playing the piece back through headphones the iPod automatically whacks the volume up then back down at the end of the track to avoid being deafened by the next orchestral section - a true wonder of technology .

Edited by 2dogs - December 16 2016 at 02:55

Wiki piece on electronic music in history....according to this there were several before Varese.

As three different people in this thread have used the term circular argument incorrectly perhaps we need to adopt this term for arguments that end-up where back where they started and use an alternative term for arguments that start from where they intend to end. That difference is far from subtle, arguments that go around in circles are merely stalled arguments that do not progress, they are little better than two people shouting "because I said so!" at each other ad infinitum, whereas a circular argument is one that begins by stating an assumption, then uses that assumption as the conclusion of the argument. The major difference is the latter correct usage of the term circular argument is not a stalled argument, it is an example of a logical fallacy. Of course the irony there is an alternative term for circular argument is begging the question, which also gets used incorrectly more often than it is used correctly. In reality most of the time we know what people mean by these terms when they are used correctly or incorrectly, and we can tell when they are being used incorrectly because of the context in which they are used. People are smart like that, words themselves are dumb and require applied interpretation to understand the connotation being used in a particular context. Similarly, knowing that "your" has been used when the writer meant "you're" is another example of applied interpretation based upon contextual usage.

Edited by Dean - December 17 2016 at 03:13

EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:

Wonderful.  Schoenberg-like.  And most notably, not an exhibition of sound effects  .

^ that is indeed cool, as is this 5-CD collection of French electroacoustic artists from GRM, which includes other notables such as Boulez and Ferrari as well as Varèse's Désert: Interpolation 1:

Dean wrote: ^ that is indeed cool, as is this 5-CD collection of French electroacoustic artists from GRM, which includes other notables such as Boulez and Ferrari as well as Varèse's Désert: Interpolation 1: Various ‎– Archives GRM