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uduwudu
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 03:58 |
^I know. But symphonic rock relates to the classical "roots" of art rock as well as the arranging and performing nature of say, the golden era bands. The intricacy of Yes's CTTE is more indicative of something that requires a lot of virtuosity to perform.
Sure other elements and styles are used to progress this music. But remove the modern classical rock bands from prog rock and you might have a lot less prog bands than what there are with these bands as the touchstones.
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Lewian
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 09:30 |
The reason for having genre descriptors like "prog" is to make the huge variety of musical expressions somewhat navigable... but they'll always be artificial and beside the point when it comes to producing and appreciating "true" music as in pure expression rather than catering for someone's expectations, success etc.
Given that this is so I'm pretty happy generally to accept the definitions and choices that people who run a website like this one make. At the end of the day, every remarkable band is different enough from every other remarkable band that one could make separate cases for and against all of them and for most combinations of include/exclude there'll be a real passionate music lover who can come up with reasons why it should be like this and no different.
That said, I still don't get why Irmin Schmidt's solo work is not on the site (I suggested him in the usual way but probably nobody saw it who could actually make a decision).
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twosteves
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Posted: December 15 2016 at 10:05 |
thanks for reminding me of the Grace Slick album---love Grace she is very smart and talented--very nice indeed.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: December 15 2016 at 16:30 |
There's some bands who just will never be considered prog because they don't have THAT sound. One example of this is the Grateful Dead. However, they made some of the most experimental and progressive music on certain occasions.
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npjnpj
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Posted: December 15 2016 at 16:43 |
Alman Brothers and Marshall Tucker? Am I going mad? They're about as far away from prog as I can personally imagine. Yikes!
As for Grace Slick: Double thunbs up. and that also goes for her follow-up album 'Dreams'.
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dr wu23
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 13:46 |
Regarding the albums the OP posted...I don't really consider any of them prog rock but they do have prog elements here and there. And I agree with the comments that Allman Bros and Tucker are not prog either....nor the Dead....never understood that one , though again there are moments here and there on some tracks and albums that have what many would consider prog rock moments. So...does that make them prog artists worthy of being on PA...?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 14:54 |
I've never understood how anyone can not consider the Dead a progressive rock band, but re the subject line of this thread, I suppose the folks who do not consider them a progressive rock band simply have very different definitions of the genre than I do . . . how those different definitions would have workable demarcation criteria, though, I don't know.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 16:15 |
I don't consider GD prog because to me prog has heavy dose of both classical and jazz/fusion influence, along with rock, and we know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of. I don't find any (almost) of those attributes in GD music.....Just being a jam band, playing 20 min songs with repeating chord, that's not prog to me.
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BaldFriede
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 16:21 |
Catcher10 wrote:
I don't consider GD prog because to me prog has heavy dose of both classical and jazz/fusion influence, along with rock, and we know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of.I don't find any (almost) of those attributes in GD music.....Just being a jam band, playing 20 min songs with repeating chord, that's not prog to me. |
There is a lot of prog that has neither jazz/fusion nor classical influences, so I would say your view of prog is a bit reduced. As to the lyrics: Sorry, I don't know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of. Please enlighten me.
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 19:16 |
Exactly, there are two big problems with Catcher10's comment:
1. His characterization would exclude a lot of music that's non-controversially progressive rock (and that I'd bet he counts as progressive rock)
2. It's completely wrong about the music-theoretical characteristics of Grateful Dead's music. Either he's not actually listened to them very much or he doesn't understand what he's hearing.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 19:20 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I don't consider GD prog because to me prog has heavy dose of both classical and jazz/fusion influence, along with rock, and we know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of.I don't find any (almost) of those attributes in GD music.....Just being a jam band, playing 20 min songs with repeating chord, that's not prog to me. |
There is a lot of prog that has neither jazz/fusion nor classical influences, so I would say your view of prog is a bit reduced. |
(Below is from this website) A definition of Progressive Rock MusicProgressive rock (often shortened to prog or prog rock) is a form of rock music that evolved in the late 1960s and early 1970s as part of a "mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility." The term "art rock" is often used interchangeably with "progressive rock", but while there are crossovers between the two genres, they are not identical. Progressive rock bands pushed "rock's technical and compositional boundaries" by going beyond the standard rock or popular verse-chorus-based song structures. Additionally, the arrangements often incorporated elements drawn from classical, jazz, and world music. Instrumentals were common, while songs with lyrics were sometimes conceptual, abstract, or based in fantasy. Progressive rock bands sometimes used "concept albums that made unified statements, usually telling an epic story or tackling a grand overarching theme." Progressive rock developed from late 1960s psychedelic rock, as part of a wide-ranging tendency in rock music of this era to draw inspiration from ever more diverse influences. The term was applied to the music of bands such as King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Soft Machine and Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Progressive rock came into most widespread use around the mid-1970s. While progressive rock reached the peak of its popularity in the 1970s and early 1980s, neo-progressive bands have continued playing for faithful audiences in the subsequent decades. Musical characteristicsForm: Progressive rock songs either avoid common popular music song structures of verse-chorus-bridge, or blur the formal distinctions by extending sections or inserting musical interludes, often with exaggerated dynamics to heighten contrast between sections. Classical forms are often inserted or substituted, sometimes yielding entire suites, building on the traditional medleys of earlier rock bands. Progressive rock songs also often have extended instrumental passages, marrying the classical solo tradition with the improvisational traditions of jazz and psychedelic rock. All of these tend to add length to progressive rock songs, which may last longer than twenty minutes. Timbre (instrumentation and tone color): Early progressive rock groups expanded the timbral palette of the then-traditional rock instrumentation of guitar, organ, bass, and drums by adding instruments more typical of jazz or folk music, such as flute, saxophone and violin, and more often than not used electronic keyboards, synthesizers, and electronic effects. Some instruments – most notably the Moog synthesizer and the Mellotron – have become closely associated with the genre. Rhythm: Drawing on their classical, jazz, folk and experimental influences, progressive rock artists are more likely to explore time signatures other than 4/4 and tempo changes. Progressive rock generally tends to be freer in its rhythmic approach than other forms of rock music. The approach taken varies, depending on the band, but may range from regular beats to irregular or complex Time Signatures. Melody and Harmony: In prog rock, the blues inflections of mainstream rock are often supplanted by jazz and classical influences. Melodies are more likely to be modal than based on the pentatonic scale, and are more likely to comprise longer, developing passages than short, catchy ones. Chords and chord progressions may be augmented with 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, and compound intervals; and the I-IV-V progression is much less common. Allusions to, or even direct quotes from, well-known classical themes are common. Some bands have used atonal or dissonant harmonies, and a few have even worked with rudimentary serialism. Texture and imagery: Ambient soundscapes and theatrical elements may be used to describe scenes, events or other aspects of the concept. For example, Leitmotif is used to represent the various characters in Genesis' "Harold the Barrel" and "Robbery, Assault and Battery." More literally, the sounds of clocks and cash registers are used to represent time and money in Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.
BaldFriede wrote:
As to the lyrics: Sorry, I don't know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of. Please enlighten me.
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Lyrical themes: Progressive rock typically has lyrical ambition similar to its musical ambition, tending to avoid typical rock/pop subjects such as love, dancing, etc., rather inclining towards the kinds of themes found in classical literature, fantasy, folklore, social commentry or all of these. Peter Gabriel (Genesis) often wrote surreal stories to base his lyrics around, sometimes including theatrical elements with several characters, while Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) combined social criticism with personal struggles with greed, madness, and death.
So...since I was specifically stating my opinion that I don't think GD are prog, the above is why I stated it. I may not 100% agree with all of PA definition of prog but it comes as close as anything else I have ever read....It's pretty clear to me. So no you are wrong I do not have a reduced view of prog, I mean how can that be when my music collection almost includes something from all genres of prog, but I guess since you have never seen my music collection, I'll forgive your comment.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 19:35 |
Terrapin Station wrote:
Exactly, there are two big problems with Catcher10's comment:
1. His characterization would exclude a lot of music that's non-controversially progressive rock (and that I'd bet he counts as progressive rock) |
Since you are making a bet...What music are you betting on that I feel this way on?
Terrapin Station wrote:
2. It's completely wrong about the music-theoretical characteristics of Grateful Dead's music. Either he's not actually listened to them very much or he doesn't understand what he's hearing.
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Growing up in the 70's on the west coast, I heard more than my fair share of GD.......As a whole, GD are not prog and I said I don't find almost any prog attributes in their music, you would have dig pretty hard and bend the PA definitions to apply to a few GD songs....So it's not completely wrong. Also I don't know what "music-theoretical characteristics" is/means??
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BaldFriede
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 01:57 |
Catcher10 wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I don't consider GD prog because to me prog has heavy dose of both classical and jazz/fusion influence, along with rock, and we know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of.I don't find any (almost) of those attributes in GD music.....Just being a jam band, playing 20 min songs with repeating chord, that's not prog to me. |
There is a lot of prog that has neither jazz/fusion nor classical influences, so I would say your view of prog is a bit reduced. |
(Below is from this website) A definition of Progressive Rock MusicAdditionally, the arrangements often incorporated elements drawn from classical, jazz, and world music.
The operative word here is "often". That's far from exclusive. I never doubted the "often". Though anybody who has some understanding of classical music (my wife BaldJean is a classically trained pianist and has taught me a lot) can clearly see that this so-called "classical influence" is overrated.
Sorry, I don't know what the majority of prog lyrics consist of. Please enlighten me.
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Lyrical themes: Progressive rock typically has lyrical ambition similar to its musical ambition, tending to avoid typical rock/pop subjects such as love, dancing, etc., rather inclining towards the kinds of themes found in classical literature, fantasy, folklore, social commentry or all of these.
[/QUOTE]
This is one of the biggest myths about prog. There are countless love songs in prog. Classical literature is very rarely cited in prog at all. The same is true for fantasy and social commentary. There are of course artists that specialize in that kind of lyrics, like for example RIO in social commentary or Hawkwinf in fantasy and SF.
I am not saying that these elements never occur in prog; they certainly do. But they are by no means typical.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 02:21 |
^ Then maybe you should re-write the definition........
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BaldFriede
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 03:15 |
Catcher10 wrote:
^ Then maybe you should re-write the definition........ |
That would only be necessary for the lyrics; I am fine with the musical definition. It would be you who would have to rewrite that part.
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BaldJean
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 03:32 |
"boy meets girl" is the central theme of most classical literature, fantasy and folklore, so
to say that prog lyrics differ from the lyrics of other music in that they
refer to classical literature as well as fantasy or folklore is a contradictio in adiecto
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micky
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 06:38 |
Terrapin Station wrote:
I've never understood how anyone can not consider the Dead a progressive rock band, but re the subject line of this thread, I suppose the folks who do not consider them a progressive rock band simply have very different definitions of the genre than I do . . . how those different definitions would have workable demarcation criteria, though, I don't know. |
of course they are... the problem is, has and always will be is the distinction between prog and progressive. Very different beasts, back in the day and even more so today. Some progressive bands are wholeheartedly accepted by the prog community, even if never associated with the prog movement, yet while bands have some stigma attached to them that causes prog fan to turn their noses up at them. The Dead are a perfect example... if they had been English... how different would the perception of them be?
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 06:58 |
Catcher, for one, I don't know if you're not noticing the words "often" and "sometimes" in what you're quoting from the site and emphasizing by underlining.
But also, it's again apparent that you haven't either listened to much Dead or understood what you were hearing, because most of that stuff you're underlining fits them.
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 07:05 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Since you are making a bet...What music are you betting on that I feel this way on?
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Re your categorizations, and these are from recent posts of yours--Rush, the Who, UFO
Growing up in the 70's on the west coast, I heard more than my fair share of GD.......As a whole, GD are not prog and I said I don't find almost any prog attributes in their music, you would have dig pretty hard and bend the PA definitions to apply to a few GD songs....So it's not completely wrong. Also I don't know what "music-theoretical characteristics" is/means?? |
Right, so if you're familiar with their music, the only option is that you didn't understand what you were hearing. Re "music-theoretical characteristics," are you unfamiliar with what music theory is?
Edited by Terrapin Station - December 17 2016 at 07:06
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Terrapin Station
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 07:08 |
Catcher10 wrote:
^ Then maybe you should re-write the definition........ |
I have my own definition that I think is much better, but it's not as if it's going to be the definition listed on progarchives just because I like it better. I'm pretty sure I posted my definition here in the past six months or so, by the way.
Edited by Terrapin Station - December 17 2016 at 07:08
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