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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 23:21
LOL This thread went south very quickly.

Rather than bicker about the same old same old (The Almond Bros and OFU again? Really?) why not suggest artists that people haven't considered before so they can perhaps listen to them with a different perspective. Of course there is the rub, because I've probably suggested all that I think fit the brief at some point over the past nine years... and when you multiply that by the average number of forum posters then it's a pretty fair bet that any band anyone can think of has already been suggested at least once. 

This should not be that surprising to anyone since we've spent the past 13 years building this database of 9,740 bands and artists by trawling through thousands of albums released since the mid-60s so all the prominent, well known and even less well known artists from the "golden age" not included have been weighed, have been measured, and have absolutely been found wanting. This therefore means that those that would probably never fit the somewhat fluid definition of Prog that the Genre teams use here but you personally feel are "a bit prog" is probably drawn from a far smaller pool than you'd imagine.
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Points: 6777 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 22:21
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

As far as some of my own examples of artists that I wholeheartedly believe are prog or prog-related artists that aren't included on the site, you've got:
  • Allman Brothers Band
And as far as bands that are in the archives of which I regularly think "THEY'RE NOT PRAAAAWWWWWG!!!!", there's: 
  • Jethro Tull: Everything up to and including Aqualung is blues rock or folk rock. No more, no less. Thick As A Brick and A Passion Play are prog albums. I'm not too familiar with much of their material after that point, but the selections I've heard didn't really sound much like prog. In general I've always seen Jethro Tull as more of a blues band with a sense of humour than a prog band.
I had to laugh at your genuine lack of musical knowledge. You are evidently unaware that nearly every song in the Allman Brothers discography is blues-based: the chording, the structure, the leads. And yet you would denigrate Tull for the same thing? LOL There is very little blues once you get past Stand Up (a pivotal album from 1969, where they made a decided shift away from blues, but again it was 1969), after which many Tull albums have absolutely no blues (Aqualung, TAAB, APP, Minstrel, Songs from the Wood, Heavy Horses, etc.). And then, to top it off, you admit to complete ignorance of albums afterward.

Stop. Please. Stop.

Fair enough. I guess for those two bands it's more of a "if we're going to include one, why not the other?". The Allman Brothers did also have songs like Whipping Post (i.e. 4/4 section in the middle of live versions) and In Memory of Elizabeth Reed (jazz fusion if I've ever heard it) that they were playing in 69-70 that could put them in the realm of proto-prog. 
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 21:03
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by anotherscott anotherscott wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Cool thread idea. My idea of what prog is has expanded over the years. I didn't use to consider the Moody Blues prog for example. There are other bands too. Plus there are bands who aren't typically considered prog who have put out prog albums(or at least albums with strong prog elements) such as The Who and Led Zeppelin among others. 

Yes, in the early 70s, a lot of generally non-prog artists put out proggy stuff, and some of it was quite good.


I'm sure there are a lot of examples. Some would be Elton John(funeral for a friend), Edgar Winter Group(Frankenstein), Sweet(love is like oxygen)the aforementioned Grateful Dead and Alman Brothers and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now. 

A lot of stuff I see as being closer to art rock or maybe a band had a sound that never developed into full blown prog(Moody Blues, ELO, Pavlov's Dog, Family, Ambrosia, Crack the Sky, City Boy, Supertramp, Roxy Music etc). There are a lot of examples of bands that I would say are "almost prog." These days I don't care that much about labels and if people want to call these bands prog I'm ok with that.


Supertramp's debut in 1970 was pretty prog to me, especially with Try Again. Adore this track, and just feel like sharing it.
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Points: 13203 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 20:58
Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

As far as some of my own examples of artists that I wholeheartedly believe are prog or prog-related artists that aren't included on the site, you've got:
  • Allman Brothers Band
And as far as bands that are in the archives of which I regularly think "THEY'RE NOT PRAAAAWWWWWG!!!!", there's: 
  • Jethro Tull: Everything up to and including Aqualung is blues rock or folk rock. No more, no less. Thick As A Brick and A Passion Play are prog albums. I'm not too familiar with much of their material after that point, but the selections I've heard didn't really sound much like prog. In general I've always seen Jethro Tull as more of a blues band with a sense of humour than a prog band.
I had to laugh at your genuine lack of musical knowledge. You are evidently unaware that nearly every song in the Allman Brothers discography is blues-based: the chording, the structure, the leads. And yet you would denigrate Tull for the same thing? LOL There is very little blues once you get past Stand Up (a pivotal album from 1969, where they made a decided shift away from blues, but again it was 1969), after which many Tull albums have absolutely no blues (Aqualung, TAAB, APP, Minstrel, Songs from the Wood, Heavy Horses, etc.). And then, to top it off, you admit to complete ignorance of albums afterward.

Stop. Please. Stop.
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 20:58
well reading the OP again, I apparently misunderstood the thread.


Ok, so my opinion of what prog is vs. the standard definition of prog.

They're very different. My vision of progressive rock always has a metal-influenced sound. Pain of Salvation is the best example of what I consider prog. Even when I listen to non-metal albums, such as Animals, Wish You Were Here, I will always find the same electric guitar sound in it. If I can't, it's not prog in my opinion.
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Points: 1327 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 20:54
Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet

IMO this album shares more qualities with dream pop/Britpop than the general impression of progressive rock
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Points: 18795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 20:23
Originally posted by anotherscott anotherscott wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Cool thread idea. My idea of what prog is has expanded over the years. I didn't use to consider the Moody Blues prog for example. There are other bands too. Plus there are bands who aren't typically considered prog who have put out prog albums(or at least albums with strong prog elements) such as The Who and Led Zeppelin among others. 

Yes, in the early 70s, a lot of generally non-prog artists put out proggy stuff, and some of it was quite good.

I'm sure there are a lot of examples. Some would be Elton John(funeral for a friend), Edgar Winter Group(Frankenstein), Sweet(love is like oxygen)the aforementioned Grateful Dead and Alman Brothers and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now. 

A lot of stuff I see as being closer to art rock or maybe a band had a sound that never developed into full blown prog(Moody Blues, ELO, Pavlov's Dog, Family, Ambrosia, Crack the Sky, City Boy, Supertramp, Roxy Music etc). There are a lot of examples of bands that I would say are "almost prog." These days I don't care that much about labels and if people want to call these bands prog I'm ok with that.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 11 2016 at 20:24
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Points: 12808 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 20:17
Originally posted by anotherscott anotherscott wrote:

Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

Thick As A Brick and A Passion Play are prog albums. I'm not too familiar with much of their material after that point, but the selections I've heard didn't really sound much like prog.

Then maybe there's more for you to listen to! Check the albums...

Minstrel in the Gallery (esp. the tracks Baker Street Muse, Black Satin Dancer)
Songs from the Wood (esp. the title track, Velvet Green, but pretty much the whole thing if you legitimize prog-folk at all)
Stormwatch (Dark Ages, Old Ghosts, Flying Dutchman)
A (Fylingdale Flyer, Black Sunday... actually most of it is pretty proggy, with Eddie Jobson's keboards)
Broad Sword (title track, Beastie, The Clasp)
Roots to Branches (title track, This Free Will, Dangerous Veils)

and check out Ian Anderson's solo album "Walk Into Light"

I guess arguing about what is and isn't prog can be endless... but I have a hard time imagining a better category for most of these.


And the live albums "Live Burstin Out" and "Live at Montreux". I like most of the songs from Aqualung, but every single one I like better from live albums, in which they expanded and made the songs more energetic... I guess I couls even say more prog.
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Points: 19 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 18:34
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Cool thread idea. My idea of what prog is has expanded over the years. I didn't use to consider the Moody Blues prog for example. There are other bands too. Plus there are bands who aren't typically considered prog who have put out prog albums(or at least albums with strong prog elements) such as The Who and Led Zeppelin among others. 

Yes, in the early 70s, a lot of generally non-prog artists put out proggy stuff, and some of it was quite good.
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Points: 19 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 18:31
Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

Thick As A Brick and A Passion Play are prog albums. I'm not too familiar with much of their material after that point, but the selections I've heard didn't really sound much like prog.

Then maybe there's more for you to listen to! Check the albums...

Minstrel in the Gallery (esp. the tracks Baker Street Muse, Black Satin Dancer)
Songs from the Wood (esp. the title track, Velvet Green, but pretty much the whole thing if you legitimize prog-folk at all)
Stormwatch (Dark Ages, Old Ghosts, Flying Dutchman)
A (Fylingdale Flyer, Black Sunday... actually most of it is pretty proggy, with Eddie Jobson's keboards)
Broad Sword (title track, Beastie, The Clasp)
Roots to Branches (title track, This Free Will, Dangerous Veils)

and check out Ian Anderson's solo album "Walk Into Light"

I guess arguing about what is and isn't prog can be endless... but I have a hard time imagining a better category for most of these.
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Points: 18795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 16:33
Cool thread idea. My idea of what prog is has expanded over the years. I didn't use to consider the Moody Blues prog for example. There are other bands too. Plus there are bands who aren't typically considered prog who have put out prog albums(or at least albums with strong prog elements) such as The Who and Led Zeppelin among others. 
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 16:30
you should definitely give that Grace Slick album a listen. the title track (the second on the album) is a 16 minute epic full of surprises


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Points: 6777 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 15:16
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

I agree with that UFO album. I'm not sure why they haven't been picked up for the psychedelic/space rock category. As far as some of my own examples of artists that I wholeheartedly believe are prog or prog-related artists that aren't included on the site, you've got:
  • Allman Brothers Band
  • Marshall Tucker Band
  • Grateful Dead
  • Joe Satriani (half of the guitarists in neo just copy his style anyway Wink)
  • Steve Vai (in prog related, but I feel he should be in one of the "pure prog" categories)
And as far as bands that are in the archives of which I regularly think "THEY'RE NOT PRAAAAWWWWWG!!!!", there's:
  • Jethro Tull 
  • Marillion
  • Rush
Do I ever expect these artists to get added/removed from the database as I'd like? Not really, and I can generally accept the rationale behind their inclusions and exclusions. And this handful of artists aside, I think that all of the past and present collaborators have done (and continue to do) a phenomenal job at categorizing the database. Thumbs Up



Regardless of the virtues and merits for inclusion of those artists you think should be included (and I do not agree with any of them), I find it utterly staggering that you do not regard three of the finest proponents of the genre in Marillion, Tull, and Rush as not belonging here.

Seriously?

It's not that I think those three bands are the antithesis of prog or anything that extreme; I just find that their material just isn't prog more often than it is. They have their place on the site, but I think their stature in the world of prog is overstated. 
  • Jethro Tull: Everything up to and including Aqualung is blues rock or folk rock. No more, no less. Thick As A Brick and A Passion Play are prog albums. I'm not too familiar with much of their material after that point, but the selections I've heard didn't really sound much like prog. In general I've always seen Jethro Tull as more of a blues band with a sense of humour than a prog band. 
  • Marillion: I'll admit, this was a bit of a blanket statement as I've only heard the Fish-era albums. But of those I'd only consider Script For A Jester's Tear to be a prog album. The other three (Grendel aside) just strike me as classic 80's AOR, with the booming drum machines, plastic synths, and no real complex passages. 
  • Rush: There's no doubt that they've put out prog material, but I think they better fit the bill as a hard rock band who've dabbled in prog than a prog band who put out heavier music. Their first two albums are plain and simple hard rock, and everything from Moving Pictures onward is just AOR/stadium rock/hard rock, whatever you want to call it. As far as their prog period between Caress of Steel and Moving Pictures, they have individual tracks (even epics) that are definitely prog pieces, but they didn't release a single album of pure prog content. Again, I can also acknowledge the profound influence that Rush has had on heavy prog/prog metal bands, but that doesn't necessarily make them any more prog themselves.
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Points: 30855 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 14:33
Pouvez-vous répéter la question?
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 14:28
If Marillion's " Hooks in You " isn't Prog, I don't know what is. ;) Seriously, I generally tend to think of particular albums and songs as progressive rock rather than bands.

I consider William Sheller's album Lux Aeterna to be prog, but can understand why he isn't here due to discography concerns. And yes, I am posting the whole album, I own it on CD, in full as it is better to re-evaluate its merits.



I also consider various Ennio Morricone msuic to be fit for the archives (prog umbrella). There's a lot of music that I consider to be prog umbrealla music not to be found in PA, and that's fine.

A controversial addition I've shown support for in the past is having Cream in Proto-Prog, and I felt that P-Funk (both Parliament and Funkadelic) has merits (both had long debate threads before).

Edited by Logan - December 11 2016 at 14:29
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Points: 373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 14:17
My opinion tends to be narrower than the majority opinion, though it has widened recently. There are quite a few bands who are widely considered "prog" but are IMHO at most prog-related. This category includes Tool and similar bands, technical extreme metal, Zappa and similar acts, and a handful of others. To me, a progressive mindset is part of the "essence" of prog, and this is missing in most of the above.
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Points: 13780 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 14:04
Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

I agree with that UFO album. I'm not sure why they haven't been picked up for the psychedelic/space rock category. As far as some of my own examples of artists that I wholeheartedly believe are prog or prog-related artists that aren't included on the site, you've got:
  • Allman Brothers Band
  • Marshall Tucker Band
  • Grateful Dead
  • Joe Satriani (half of the guitarists in neo just copy his style anyway Wink)
  • Steve Vai (in prog related, but I feel he should be in one of the "pure prog" categories)
And as far as bands that are in the archives of which I regularly think "THEY'RE NOT PRAAAAWWWWWG!!!!", there's:
  • Jethro Tull 
  • Marillion
  • Rush
Do I ever expect these artists to get added/removed from the database as I'd like? Not really, and I can generally accept the rationale behind their inclusions and exclusions. And this handful of artists aside, I think that all of the past and present collaborators have done (and continue to do) a phenomenal job at categorizing the database. Thumbs Up




Regardless of the virtues and merits for inclusion of those artists you think should be included (and I do not agree with any of them), I find it utterly staggering that you do not regard three of the finest proponents of the genre in Marillion, Tull, and Rush as not belonging here.

Seriously?
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Points: 6472 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 13:56
I think we will all have views that differ from the general opinion.  Here are some of mine:
 
I agree that The Allman Brothers Band, Satriani, and the Grateful Dead are either Prog-Related or even Proto-Prog.
Steeleye Span should be in Prog Folk.
In fact, Maddy Prior, with all the extended thematic suites she has done in her solo releases, should also be on the site.
Jade Warrior should go into Eclectic Prog rather than Psychedelic/Space Rock because it covers their entire output.
Dave Brubeck should also be considered Prot-Prog due to his experiments with time signatures.
A lot of the music that is in Proto and Related categories is better than the music in the true Prog categories.
Popularity does not equal lack of quality.
Obscurity does not equal high quality.
 
I am not sure how these relate to general views or official views of the site, but there they are.
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Points: 1774 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 12:34
I third that UFO album, it's a space rock classic. I wish they continued down that path.
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Points: 6777 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2016 at 11:21
I agree with that UFO album. I'm not sure why they haven't been picked up for the psychedelic/space rock category. As far as some of my own examples of artists that I wholeheartedly believe are prog or prog-related artists that aren't included on the site, you've got:
  • Allman Brothers Band
  • Marshall Tucker Band
  • Grateful Dead
  • Joe Satriani (half of the guitarists in neo just copy his style anyway Wink)
  • Steve Vai (in prog related, but I feel he should be in one of the "pure prog" categories)
And as far as bands that are in the archives of which I regularly think "THEY'RE NOT PRAAAAWWWWWG!!!!",* there's:
  • Jethro Tull 
  • Marillion
  • Rush
Do I ever expect these artists to get added/removed from the database as I'd like? Not really, and I can generally accept the rationale behind their inclusions and exclusions. And this handful of artists aside, I think that all of the past and present collaborators have done (and continue to do) a phenomenal job at categorizing the database. Thumbs Up

* Disclaimer: When I say that these bands aren't praaaaawwwwg, I do concede to the fact that they have released prog material throughout their careers. All I mean is that I feel that their stature and reputation as prog bands is generally overstated. I don't think they should be stripped from the database and their fans banned from the site, just that they're less proggy than their typically made out to be.


Edited by Magnum Vaeltaja - December 12 2016 at 07:52
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