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Topic ClosedHow did prog rock become the laughing stock...

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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 07:57
Phil Collins ruined Genesis ANHD prog CoolLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 09:20
I'd guess that there were many arrogant prog fans (and perhaps even musicians) around who'd treasure their 13/8 rhythms and their musicians showing off their skills but would look down on people who'd play or listen to "simpler" music for which not much skill was needed (and where its lack was all too apparent). It may well have been a two-sided thing.

And then "you must destroy to build". (Einstuerzende Neubauten)


Edited by Lewian - June 02 2016 at 13:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 10:39
Holy moly - ridiculous

I myself like the Sex Pistols, Clash, etc. far more than ELP, who are dismal and horrible.  90% of Yes is also not in my cup of tea, despite their masterpieces.

And I listen primarily to prog - RIO, Avant, classic, kraut, etc.  

Musical tastes are not about technique, except for some musicians.  The context, message, etc. all matter a great deal in any artistic consumption.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 10:43
The big bands of the 70's, meaning Yes, King Crimson, etc, became popular mainly because the hippies liked to trip to their music, and the longer the piece the better. Many great musicians saw this as a chance to express their musical ideas, and their talents too. Later on, the next generations were not really interested in that, favoring the more simplistic, short pieces of music, which is what punk music/artists offered.
Throughout history, the vast majority of people have been interested in simple music, mainly with a good dancing beat and a catchy tune to humm around, while a small portion of the population has been interested in a musical listening experience. Obviously, prog would fit in the second category, and it is logical that music critics, who make a living of it, would not favor a genre that most people would not get into, so putting it down is a natural consequence.


Edited by Manuel - June 02 2016 at 10:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 11:19
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:


It's all good....to many people (like myself in this instance) Jello Biafra is someone who's music is completely irrelevant, from an artist completely worth ignoring, despite what a bunch of trendy kids like to think

Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all.  

I lived in the SF bay area and saw Jello and the Dead Kennedy's several times through the 80's and some historical perspective is necessary to appreciate what they were doing.  In the 80's, Jello's lyrics and the DK album artwork promoted an anti-Reagan political stance that was extremely relevant.  Many in the US felt that Reagan was just a couple of moments away from starting WWIII with Russia ("the evil empire") at his whim.  The DK's took that issue straight on...not to mention the hypocrisy of TV evangelists and our undeclared war in central America.  Also, the album artwork and 12" x 12" posters included in their albums (especially HR Gigers "Penis Envy" included in the DK's Frankenchrist album) put Jello at the forefront of the fight for freedom of expression and a direct target of lawsuits.  There were other US hardcore bands with similar political agenda's (The Minutemen, Millions of Dead Christians - aka MDC, etc) but Jello and the DK's were always the lead dog in the fight against Reagan conservatism...and as such the biggest targets.  

Musically, I could care less what Jello had to say about prog bands (though it is ironic if he bashed ELP with their HR Giger connection then used Gigers artwork to push the bounds of freedom of expression).  The DK's were not about the music (cool as it was) but the message Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 11:57
Decades ago ( early to mid 80's)  I interview multiple punk rockers.   One issue came up over and over again.   I'll try to distill and paraphrase the gist of their point of view.

A certain prog/punk guitarist told me something like this...

"In high school around 77 I played in a progressive band.   The keyboardist, drummer, and bass player were all band dweebs with whom I had nothing in common except they were the only people in school talented enough to play Yes covers.  Then punk hit the scene and I realized I could teach my best friends to play guitar, bass, and drums.  And so I did.   We had a blast because I was playing with my friends.  Punk allowed a massive group of untalented musicians to finally rock out!   We didn't need a Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury either.  Our vocalist screamed pissed off vocals.   We got girls, had fun, did drugs, and drank a lot of beer.  So of course we hated progressive music. "  

Like I said, I heard different versions of that story over and over.   Progressive Rock had to go because it's popularity stopped a whole generation of air guitarist from going electric. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - June 02 2016 at 11:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 12:03
Hmm...

All these theories sound plausible but on closer examination ...? 

One premise is that Prog was middle class because the musicians and their audience were middle class, and likewise Punk was working-class because the musicians and audience were working-class. The big problem with that is the youth-population of Britain didn't suddenly go from being mainly middle-class to mainly working class in between the end of 1975 and the middle of 1976. Which raises two related questions: what were the working-class listening to before Punk? and what where the middle-classes listening to after Prog? For there to have been a class-divide between the two genres of music would have meant that they could have (and should have) co-existed without one affecting the other. That the (disaffected/unemployed) working-classes suddenly developed a music of their own would have had no bearing on what middle-class college students listened to when toking on a spliff in their halls of residence or student digs. Prog and Punk appealed to young people of all classes. The only "class" that hated Punk were the middle-aged, middle-class middle-Englanders - (aka Mrs Mary Whitehouse and her ilk) and they hated all youth culture regardless of what it was (and still do). [NB: the notion of race here (i.e. white middle-class) is irrelevant - neither Prog nor Punk had much impact on the non-white community who were content with listening to Soul, Disco, R&B and Reggae music]

It is a similar situation for the musicians, though the evidence of a class-divide among musicians is less clear. While it seems superficially true that to achieve a level of musical proficiency to play Prog requires a formal musical education that in the 1970s could be presumed to be only available to the middle-classes, we know that very few Prog musicians had this level of musical background and most of them were self-taught. So there were certainly many working-class Prog musicians and several well documented cases of middle-class punk musicians - Joe Strummer was the son of a diplomat, the 'Bromley Contingent' came from the same middle-class area of suburban Greater London as Peter Frampton and David Bowie, the Stranglers came from Guildford (probably the most middle-class town in middle England's stock-broker belt). It is estimated that nearly half the Punk musicians were middle-class and a third of them had a university education - Punk as was much a product of Art School alumni as Prog ever was, if not more so... And that's a significant point - Punk was not just music - it was an art movement - the Sex Pistols were manufactured by two middle-class Art students with a "product" to sell; whereas Prog (unlike Psychedelia before it) was just music without a subculture and Art-background to support, promote and maintain it. 

Of course, therein lies the problem with Prog and why we find it so hard to define, classify, and compartmentalise. Whether through accident or intent, it lacked that cohesive common-ground to unify and define it - so it was easy to ridicule Prog because anything chosen to illustrate how pompous and overblown it was automatically became representative of the whole genre, even when in reality it wasn't. For example Genesis taking hampers of food on tour with them is used to show that they were aloof and middle-class, whereas the truth is they couldn't afford to feed themselves in restaurants and bars every night. I would suggest here (and this is just a theory) that Prog musicians distanced themselves from any form of subculture in direct reaction to the post-hippy come-down and the death of the Summer of Love - Prog was a leaderless anti-hippy freakdom of music devoid of all that non-music baggage whose only ethos was individuality and self-expression. If Punk ever honestly rebelled against anything, it was that - Anarchists in name only, Punk was actually conservative and conformist - to be a Punk meant adopting the whole shebang: the art, the music, the style and the uniform dress-code - right from the tippy toes of their Doc Marten boots that Mummy bought for them to their tooth-paste spiked hair and the "I, Individual" tattoo drawn in biro on their foreheads - One cannot be simultaneously left wing and libertarian, and there the whole class-divide comes crashing down because class and politics are only loosely aligned - bands such as Sham 69 had as many right-wing skinhead followers as they had left-wing, no-wing punk followers... On the political spectrum what came after Punk was ten years of Thatcher and Regan Conservatism, not in reaction to Punk but as a direct disaffected consequence of it - the people who voted for them were the same people who pogo'd and gobbed to Anarchy In The UK and God Save The Queen four years earlier.

The "classing-down" of Punk and its musicians was a media invention that snowballed because it sold newspapers and (eventually) records. In retrospect it made bigger "stars" of the music journalists who wrote it than most of the Punk musicians they wrote about. Middle-class Punk musicians latched on to this because it was a lucrative bandwagon to climb aboard - all free publicity is good publicity and when the music press is "on your side" then it would be daft to deny that it was true. 

Similarly, the myth that they couldn't play their instruments, a put-down that had historically been levelled at any emergent music trend by established 'professional' musicians (this had been said of all pop bands from the Beatles onwards and still persists today), was turned-around and used as a battle-cry with such conviction that the public believed it not only to be true, but believed it to be a prerequisite for making this "new wave" of music long after the evidence presented by post-punk and all that followed after has proven it to be false. To be a Punk meant conforming to the ideal regardless of how proficient the musician really was - flash solos and musical self-indulgences were frowned upon (by the music-media) and musicianship was suppressed (by the musicians themselves).

[And seriously, I couldn't give a flying fart what Johnny-come-lately Jello Biafra said or thought three or four years after Punk had officially curled-up its toes and died...]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 12:41
PS: If you want to know what pre-1976 Anti-Prog in the UK looked like, it is this:
...and that was also the can't-play-guitar guitar-based 3-chord 12-bar blueprint to most UK Punk music that followed it. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 14:19
^ That's Status Quo, is it not? Did they have any good stuff outside of "Pictures Of Matchstick Men"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 15:06
My friends and I loved both punk and progressive rock.  It always seemed like another one of those false choices to me. 
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 15:48
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

My friends and I loved both punk and progressive rock.  It always seemed like another one of those false choices to me. 
 
I listen to both Yes and the Clash.  I never saw any contradiction in doing so.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 15:58
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

^ That's Status Quo, is it not? Did they have any good stuff outside of "Pictures Of Matchstick Men"?

Are you absolutely sure?  TongueTongueTongueTongue


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 16:32
I like punk too. I'm not trying to bash it or the members by any means, I have just been watching a lot of documentaries/interviews recently about both punk and prog rock and I always here the sl*g.ing off of prog bands from the punk guys.  I know being a great musician doesn't mean you write great music (it's all opinion anyway) but it seemed like punk guys were saying that their music was taking a stand against prog, which I thought was weird.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 16:44
I hated punk as much as I hated Margaret Thatcher.

The reason most punks hated prog is because they weren't talented enough to play like that.

Mind you, some prog bands and solo artists did indulge in some appalling w*****y from 1976 onwards. Step forward Messrs Wakeman, Emerson.......!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 17:00
Originally posted by tboyd1802 tboyd1802 wrote:

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

^ That's Status Quo, is it not? Did they have any good stuff outside of "Pictures Of Matchstick Men"?

Are you absolutely sure?  TongueTongueTongueTongue


Once again the Americans arrive late to the party. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 17:14
When punk came around I was more into metal, NWOBHM mainly. As well as prog and funk/R&B, I never had time to listen to punk other than what came on the FM in those days and none of it was appealing to me.

It was simply angry, distorted music and I am sure the lyrics were with meaning but it never made it thru the music for me.
I watch those 80's documentaries and when they talk about the punk movement, I really don't feel like I missed anything.

Prog...I am not surprised people feel it is the laughing stock....Some of this music is weird....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 19:05
I'm probably the only one who actually thinks that prog and punk have a lot more in common then most people think. While they couldn't be farther apart musically, conceptually they both were in some sense a rebellion against the mainstream. Prog got stale anyways at the end of the 70's with a few exceptions, so I would think that punk would have been a perfect alternative. I can't speak for prog fans during the 70's though.

I get really sick of how many people think that punk was prog's downfall. Prog was prog's own downfall and punk was just a new kind of music that took over the underground music scene. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 20:28
Prog was declining and people were getting tired of it, some bands releasing some very mediocre albums didn't help. And punk was the "new" genre at the time. Kinda like how grunge was the new thing in the early 90's and killed Glam/pop metal. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 20:38
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

The big bands of the 70's, meaning Yes, King Crimson, etc, became popular mainly because the hippies liked to trip to their music, and the longer the piece the better. Many great musicians saw this as a chance to express their musical ideas, and their talents too. Later on, the next generations were not really interested in that, favoring the more simplistic, short pieces of music, which is what punk music/artists offered.
Throughout history, the vast majority of people have been interested in simple music, mainly with a good dancing beat and a catchy tune to humm around, while a small portion of the population has been interested in a musical listening experience. Obviously, prog would fit in the second category, and it is logical that music critics, who make a living of it, would not favor a genre that most people would not get into, so putting it down is a natural consequence.

I agree, changing tastes of recreational drugs played a very big part!  The '70s saw pot, hash, LSD, mescaline and all sorts of other drugs amenable to long, complex jams and compositions.   

Punk was fueled by huffing, particularly amyl or butyl nitrate; alcohol, speed and other stimulants.  Punks were not in a mood to be mellow and relax, they wanted to pogo-dance, smash stuff, be angry and vent pent up energy. 

Disclosure: I was a progressive bassist/guitarist in the early/mid 1970s, and easily transitioned to being a progressive punk/new wave bassist in the early 1980s.  There was a lot of common ground between punk and music like LTIA, Red etc.    Yes, ELP and Genesis, not so much.



Edited by cstack3 - June 02 2016 at 20:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 21:16
It all just has to do with the changing of the times. No genres slaughtered eachother in some great proverbial deathmatch constantly reaching for the higher spot- there was just what was mainstream and what wasn't. Same applies today. Ever since prog was created there have been fans enjoying it as well as recreating it; no amount of punk, grunge, glam or whatever else did anything to curb that. It all comes down to preference between what decade is best and the pros and cons of them.
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