How did prog rock become the laughing stock...

Captain Beefheart wrote: in the late 70's? I know the singers from both Sex Pistols and Dead Kennedys always talk about how they HATED ... Gong

I recently watched an interview with Steven Wilson.  It was just an aside, but Steven mentioned that when punk fails, it's just kind of a crappy mess.  When prog fails, it fails with drama, excess and extreme obviousness.  It's a perspective that had never occurred to me.  In some ways, prog is an easier target and, if this site is any indicator, much more entertaining to criticise.

Captain Beefheart wrote: zravkapt wrote: Captain Beefheart wrote: in the late 70's? I know the singers from both Sex Pistols and Dead Kennedys always talk about how they HATED ... Gong  ]Whoa, there. Some punks were big fans of Gong (and Beefheart fwiw). I know John Lydon of the Pistols was a fan of VDGG. The Kennedys' Jello Biafra was a big fan of both VDGG and Magma. Other 'prog' acts punks liked included Hawkwind and Can. Punks hated bands like Floyd and Yes for the same reason they hated the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac: they were very popular. Just another example of 'if everyone else likes it then I don't.'  I know Rotten said that bands like Uriah Heep and Gong were boring. Jello Biafra lists Yes in his top 5 WORST bands of all time and has also slammed Emerson Lake and Palmer. He is also a blow hard, but I just never understood how they could hate great musicianship so much. But with the other posters showed me it seems like the style and theatrics is what they hated. I never thought of that as I never saw any of those bands live.

Johnny Lydon was a big fan of Peter Hammill/ VdGG, Captain Beefheart, Can, Third Ear Band (various Krautrock) and many other bands often classifed as Prog. He did an interview listing his favourite albums in the 70s, and I posted it here ages ago, but can't find it now. You might be surprised how much stuff he liked. He mentioned in another old interview that he had about eight Beefheart albums (I reiterate Beefheart due to your user name).

He loved Kate Bush, and he liked Bowie a lot. He also liked Roxy Music a lot. Generally, I think he was attracted to the quirkier music we put in the prog universe, but then he didn't like Gong you say, so just a matter of taste.

EDIT to include last post as I did not see it when typing.

Lots of people slam ELP for being too show-offy and bombastic, and those qualities plus the noodling puts me off. I don't like ELP much, nor do I like Yes much. I could say that it's because I appreciate great music more than great instrumental skills, but great in this case is just personal taste. It can be hard to appreciate the skills when you don't appreciate the results (Dream Theater for me, for instance). But then I'm not sure that the musicianship is that amazing. And I have found ELP a ridiculous spectacle to watch.

Edited by Logan - June 01 2016 at 19:18

The punks hated prog (and arena rock) because of its excess and perceived elitism.

Punk was as much a disaffected youth movement as much as anything else. The 1970's were pretty grim, and the major prog acts had never really appealed to the urban masses.

Punk sought to tap into that feeling, and, even though some of the protagonists were well into their adulthood, did so very well. Punk was new, and for the "kids" (man), whilst prog was elitist, middle class, and the old. Such was a highly successful media narrative which has survived to this very day, witness the OP.

As other posts have pointed out, in reality there was a respect from many of the new wave musicians for their prog counterparts, this being clear from many interviews after the day. Punks, regrettably, slip into comfortable middle age as well

Punk was working class, and Progressive was middle class. The U.K. is still divided along these lines, and others, and that allows for class structures, and groups to compete for control of each music scene as it comes along. After punk, we had student culture dominate the scene. Each new generation of kids gets a shot at it. Eventually, the new music gets absorbed by the pop industry and becomes the establishment. Then a new revolt starts, and so on. I was in the very first wave of punk bands, and packed out the Camden Palace, and Marquee, playing guitar in THE RATS, David Kubinik´s band. Who dumped us and took a solo career with A&M Records which bombed. He was a real RAT, haha, and deserved to fail. But I had a brilliant time, no regrets, and took part in that fresh energy. The new music gave us so many possibilities beyond copying what went before. That was a very creative moment to experience. I mean, who the hell was going to follow Hendrix? He had already done everything that could be done on the guitar. Punk made the guitar into a hammer, a simple working tool, nothing special. You could go nuts with it in a totally new way. Now we owned the Marquee Club! What fun!

^ Klaus Flouride is wicked bassist.

It's all good....to many people (like myself in this instance) Jello Biafra is someone who's music is completely irrelevant, from an artist completely worth ignoring, despite what a bunch of trendy kids like to think [/QUOTE]

I do love the Dead Kennedys and Jello Biafra as a singer, but he is a complete blow hard and very annoying to listen to talk because all he does rant non stop.

It was less to do with music and more to do with the people I guess. For many, prog rock was viewed as an elitist form of music for middle class white students.

Britain was in a terrible state in the 70's, and 25 minute songs about wizards, aliens, topographic oceans, Greek mythology or science fiction didn't resonate with people who didn't have a pot to p!ss in. Punk was an outlet although this is a very high level and generalised view. In reality some people did like both prog rock and punk, but I imagine they were relatively few in number.

John Lydon was a fan of Hawkwind and VDGG, but that was the dark and anarchic side of prog rock. Punks didn't like the frilly shirts, capes and flashing lobster stage shows of the symphonic pomp monsters.

Blacksword wrote: ALotOfBottle wrote: They did not hate  prog. It was comfortable for them to say so  and  it was supposed to be a part of their image. From what I understand, English society is quite class-based and  punks, being working class were not hip with the <span ="_tgc"="">bourgeoisie music that prog appeared to be. And it was! Greg Lake, for example, carried a persian carpet on tour. ELP in particular were a bourgeoisie band. But remember Sex Pistols also sold out and in a way betrayed ideas that they were fighting for. From as far as I know, </span>Johnny Rotten admitted that Aqualung was one of his favorite albums, while many years later Paul Cook came up to Phil Collins at an airport and said he had secretly been a great influence of his. It was not "hate", it was part of their image. They wanted people to think it was all about "hate". But indeed, prog became regarded as unfashionable and too escapist, if you will. People are talking about Jello Biafra (whom I love BTW), but actually American punk was a much different thing than English punk originally. American punk in its spirit was much closer to prog, as it was music that wanted to be regarded as art. I'm talking about Dead Kennedys in particular here. Think that may have been Rat Scabies not Paul Cook... Some punk musicians may have grown up with prog in one shape or form, but I suspect there were very Sex Pistols fans who also dug Close to the Edge and Songs from the wood

Dang, forgive me, of course it was Rat Scabies, not Paul Cook. Sorry. Will edit my message.


Edited by ALotOfBottle - June 02 2016 at 07:22