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Topic ClosedThe Beatles never existed!
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earlyprog View Drop Down
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:31
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

...the use of sitar before Fifth Dimension and Revolver was not in the way they are used in India. 

So because of 5D the sitar thereafter was used as it was in India?

Did the Byrds ever use a sitar on any of their recordings?
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:36
^ 5D didn't use sitar themselves, of course, but it opened the door for more traditional use of it - mainly by way of helping influence "Love You To".

Edited by Lear'sFool - January 25 2015 at 10:36
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:39
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

What you're missing is what you quoted of mine: that the use of sitar before Fifth Dimension and Revolver was not in the way they are used in India. Just because you use a certain instrument doesn't mean all the influences associated with it immediately come with it, nor does lack of it mean you can't use those influences. Just because jazz musicians use guitars doesn't mean they are all fusion; it's in how they use it. Just because there are no African instruments on Remain In Light doesn't mean it's not African influenced; it's in how they used their rock instruments.

"Eight Miles High" actually introduced Indian musical mores. The end.

I grant you that the Beatles would initially use new musical instruments like the melotron, moog, 12-string and sitar in an awkward fashion. As pioneers in rock often do.

You still owe us an explanation why ""Eight Miles High" actually introduced Indian musical mores" Wink


Edited by earlyprog - January 25 2015 at 11:41
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:42
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

^ 5D didn't use sitar themselves, of course, but it opened the door for more traditional use of it - mainly by way of helping influence "Love You To".

Hold it right there! 

This is probably as close as we get to an agreement LOL


Edited by earlyprog - January 25 2015 at 11:04
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:54
Erm..wouldn't the collaborations between Ravi Shankar and the likes of jazzers Bud Shank (alto sax/flute) and Tony Scott (clarinet) from the late 50's have pre-empted the Byrds and the Beatles re the sitar being introduced into western popular music? (albeit not in the popular consciousness as Ravi, Bud and Tony produced precisely zero hit singles)
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:56
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

I grant you that the Beatles would initially use new musical instruments like the melotron, 12-string and sitar in an awkward fashion. As pioneers in rock often do.

You still owe us an explanation why ""Eight Miles High" actually introduced Indian musical mores" Wink

The mores I refer to are just simply the ways that traditional Indian music is played. Their styles. Which all the original rock sitarists and The Kinks didn't use, of course, they just played them in a rock fashion. And it worked! But with "Eight Miles High", they started using drones, like is often done in India, and in an obviously Indian fashion. They droned the lyrics, they droned their guitar.

All of this would have likely helped George along to actually droning his sitar, alongside those lessons with Ravi Shankar.

They also, notably, took extra Indo-esque influence from Coltrane's "India".


Edited by Lear'sFool - January 25 2015 at 10:56
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 10:57
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Erm..wouldn't the collaborations between Ravi Shankar and the likes of jazzers Bud Shank (alto sax/flute) and Tony Scott (clarinet) from the late 50's have pre-empted the Byrds and the Beatles re the sitar being introduced into western popular music? (albeit not in the popular consciousness as Ravi, Bud and Tony produced precisely zero hit singles)

Quite.
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Points: 6446 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 12:58
Is there any footage of The Beatles performing "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" in concert? Nope. Didn't exist.
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Points: 20616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 13:16
So, according to the theme of this thread, the sitar would never have existed without the Beatles.
Who never existed. Wacko 

Edited by SteveG - January 25 2015 at 13:17
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 13:41
Just for the record:








Edited by earlyprog - January 25 2015 at 14:31
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Points: 2466 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 14:03
if you ask me personally, i think this is all bullsh*t. haters gonna hate i guess.... man what's wrong with humanity?!
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Points: 20616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 14:08
^Er, they're only human would be a good guess.
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Points: 1422 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2015 at 14:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^Er, they're only human would be a good guess.
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 05:45
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

News Flash: Paul is Dead!

The Corpse is now working with Kayne West:

http://pitchfork.com/news/57934-kanye-west-and-paul-mccartney-team-up-for-only-one/

He appears to have resurrected and is now also working with Rihanna:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-mccartney-kanye-west-song-with-rihanna-out-and-some-still-don-t-know-him

Someone should stop that zombie before he harms more people.
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Points: 2822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 06:00
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

News Flash: Paul is Dead!

The Corpse is now working with Kayne West:

http://pitchfork.com/news/57934-kanye-west-and-paul-mccartney-team-up-for-only-one/

He appears to have resurrected and is now also working with Rihanna:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-mccartney-kanye-west-song-with-rihanna-out-and-some-still-don-t-know-him

Someone should stop that zombie before he harms more people.


How would he reconcile his craving for BRAAAAAAAINS with his veganism?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 06:10
I doubt Kanye West and Rihanna have brains......
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Points: 2822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 06:26
But Kanye isn't a vegetable.  He's a gay fish.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2015 at 06:36
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

I doubt Kanye West and Rihanna have brains......


Yes, their music sucks hugely but both are multi millionaires and have impacted upon contemporary culture by dint of their own endeavor (a claim that as far as I'm aware, neither of us can make unless you are a neglected genius languishing filthy and forgotten in an attic somewhere) If it was that easy for brain dead charlatans to sell shedloads of pop albums, we'd all be doing it don't ya think? Its scarcity alone that confers a value on anything (no matter how repellant the mode of expression appears to us) People with brains, such as yourself clearly understand that....Imagine no possessions LOL
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Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 15:04
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Erm..wouldn't the collaborations between Ravi Shankar and the likes of jazzers Bud Shank (alto sax/flute) and Tony Scott (clarinet) from the late 50's have pre-empted the Byrds and the Beatles re the sitar being introduced into western popular music? (albeit not in the popular consciousness as Ravi, Bud and Tony produced precisely zero hit singles)

Quite.
The Beatles haters will always make me laugh you do know the difference between what Coltrane and what The Beatles did. Honestly, I don't care who did what first but the differences between what Coltrane and The Byrds did compare what the Beatles did with "Love You To", "Within You Without You" and the "Inner Light"  are not even close and certainly you can hear with your own ears.
 
Again The Beatles what they did with those songs was fully try to fuse Classical Indian music principles in mode, instrumentation with pop/music. The Byrds or Coltrane never attempted that and those are the plain facts.
 
While I am not certain that "Ticket To Ride" which was recorded and released before the Kinks" See My Friends"  with its droning guitar lines and lopsided drum patterns is influenced by Indian music it certainly reminiscent of their own "Rain" which was definitely influenced by Indian music.
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 15:16
^ The heck? Me a hater of The Beatles? Never. If pointing out that The Beatles had influences and precedents  is hatred....

In the end, you fail to to see the connections between the various raga influenced works, and, knowing you are wrong, resort to insult.

The Beatles - and specifically, George - would not have jumped into the sitar and raga if not for The Byrds. Roger McGuinn introduced George to the sitar via a Ravi Shankar recording, and they helped move the process along with "Eight Miles High", which did in fact pip the Fab Four on being first to try and fuse raga principles into rock music, thank you very much.

And The Byrds clearly got the idea to do so from Trane. And Trane got his ideas from Bud Shank and Tony Scott. Who did such because they met Ravi and collaborated. Ravi had a lot of faith and interest in mixing raga into Western forms, first jazz and orchestral, and then later helping George learn the sitar once McGuinn introduced George to it and Ravi and so picked one up.

The story of music is the story of precedence.


Edited by Lear'sFool - February 01 2015 at 15:20
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