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Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
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Points: 8642
Posted: January 24 2015 at 14:14
^ "Love You To" the first attempt in rock to emulate Indian music? The Byrds did it first with "Eight Miles High". In fact The Byrds introduced George to the sitar. "Love You To" is equally as vital as "Eight Miles High" to the introduction of Indian influences to rock, but the Beatles's track is second.
Neither was "Eleanor Rigby" first. The Beach Boys, again The Byrds, and The Zombies all came first with their baroque pop tracks. Really The Beatles didn't start being first to innovations until Sgt. Peppers.
Zappa used tape loops as well.
And I get the feeling you just have only listened to the smallest portions of Zappa's discography. It's huge!Lumpy Gravy did experimentations with concrete like John did, Hot Rats was Zappa gone fusion - which he would revisit constantly in the '70's -, and do not ever underestimate how radical it is to bring Varese and Stravinsky into rock. It still is to this day!
And Zappa wasn't jealous. Zappa had just thought that the Beatles were, *ahem*, only in it for the money. Like anyone else, he wasn't always right.
Hard as it is to overrate the Beatles, you have. More obviously, you've criminally underrated Zappa.
Joined: January 07 2012
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 15:20
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ "Love You To" the first attempt in rock to emulate Indian music? The Byrds did it first with "Eight Miles High". In fact The Byrds introduced George to the sitar. "Love You To" is equally as vital as "Eight Miles High" to the introduction of Indian influences to rock, but the Beatles's track is second.
Neither was "Eleanor Rigby" first. The Beach Boys, again The Byrds, and The Zombies all came first with their baroque pop tracks. Really The Beatles didn't start being first to innovations until Sgt. Peppers.
Zappa used tape loops as well.
And I get the feeling you just have only listened to the smallest portions of Zappa's discography. It's huge!Lumpy Gravy did experimentations with concrete like John did, Hot Rats was Zappa gone fusion - which he would revisit constantly in the '70's -, and do not ever underestimate how radical it is to bring Varese and Stravinsky into rock. It still is to this day!
And Zappa wasn't jealous. Zappa had just thought that the Beatles were, *ahem*, only in it for the money. Like anyone else, he wasn't always right.
Hard as it is to overrate the Beatles, you have. More obviously, you've criminally underrated Zappa.
No disrespect to you but you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Though I have to say I remember reading some of the members of Velvet Underground accusing Zappa being jealous of The Beatles success regarding Sgt. Pepper. Then again Zappa once remarked in 1966 that he thought "Paperback Writer" was one of the best songs of 1966.
The Beatles were already venturing to Baroque Pop with "Yesterday" in 1965 remember that song before even the Beach Boys got to Pet Sounds or the Zombies got to Odyssey in Oracle.
If you considering The Byrds Mr. Tambourine a baroque pop song because it uses an introduction influenced by Bach then you might as well call The Beatles "Not A Second Time" baroque pop because its hard not hear classical influences on the piano break.
What I am saying about "Eleanor Rigby" which is considered a leider/art song rather an baroque pop song it was a complete departure from what other bands were doing at the time with it's string octet backing/vocal with no rock instrumentation whatsoever. I can't think of another rock band prior to The Beatles doing this.
"Norwegian Wood" predates "Eight Miles High" which has no sitar. As it is George Harrison was already aware of the sitar on Help. The Soundtrack of Help has sitar based music. Anyhow that wasn't even my point as I never denied the Indian influences on "Eight Miles High".
Again "Love You To" unlike "Eight Miles High" again uses a non-Western form of music in structure and instrumentation. There is no Indian instrumentation whatsoever in "Eight Miles High".
I get Zappa used tape loops but did he use it creatively like "Tomorrow Never Knows" or "Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite". Also take "Revolution #9" the track is an important milestone in rock/pop music for it's sole use of sampling/loops for it's track basis. None of it was recorded in real time unlike what Zappa did.
Please don't get me started with "I AmThe Walrus" with one of the first uses of a sampled fade-out in a pop song.
Remember all these bands were listening to each other and the influences went back and forth.
Joined: November 09 2014
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 15:55
^ Still off by several country miles.
"Yesterday" precedes Pet Sounds but not The Beach Boys Today! or even Summer Days, when Wilson started to add strings to the Beach Boys's sound. These preceded Help! by several months. As well, anyone with the slightest knowledge of the two bands would tell you that they influenced each other cyclically. The members would tell you this themselves.
Firstly, "Eight Miles High" was the first one to actually bring Indian mores to rock. The end. That sitar from earlier was played outside of those. As well, it was still The Byrds who introduced the sitar to George. They met in person before Help! was cut.
Lumpy Gravy uses concrete a la "Revolution 9". It also came first.
Interesting note about "I Am The Walrus": John got the fade out - a dramatic reading/radio play version of King Lear - by directly recording a show he came across on AM radio around the time the track was being assembled. He recorded it and used it for the fade out. For that reason I hesitate to call it actual sampling, but it certainly influenced actual sampling that followed. I did say that The Beatles started being first to the punch from Sgt. Peppers on.
Joined: January 07 2012
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 16:58
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ Still off by several country miles.
"Yesterday" precedes Pet Sounds but not The Beach Boys Today! or even Summer Days, when Wilson started to add strings to the Beach Boys's sound. These preceded Help! by several months. As well, anyone with the slightest knowledge of the two bands would tell you that they influenced each other cyclically. The members would tell you this themselves.
Firstly, "Eight Miles High" was the first one to actually bring Indian mores to rock. The end. That sitar from earlier was played outside of those. As well, it was still The Byrds who introduced the sitar to George. They met in person before Help! was cut.
Lumpy Gravy uses concrete a la "Revolution 9". It also came first.
Interesting note about "I Am The Walrus": John got the fade out - a dramatic reading/radio play version of King Lear - by directly recording a show he came across on AM radio around the time the track was being assembled. He recorded it and used it for the fade out. For that reason I hesitate to call it actual sampling, but it certainly influenced actual sampling that followed. I did say that The Beatles started being first to the punch from Sgt. Peppers on.
OK you don't think The Beatles use of the sitar on "Norwegian Wood" which is the first rock/pop song to use the sitar and also pre-dates "Eight Miles High" was not an important influence not only influencing psychedelic rock music but bringing Indian influences to rock? Lets not alter the facts OK.
Using strings does not make it automatically make it Baroque Pop then you might as well call anything that uses strings Baroque Pop.
The Beatles were already using musique concrete/tape loops techniques on "Tomorrow Never Knows" and Sgt. Pepper both precede "Lumpy Gravy". What really is frustrating you are not getting the difference between "Revolution #9" and "Lumpy Gravy".
The Beatles track is not recorded in real time it's just composed of found sounds, tape loops, sampling from other sources including classical music and their own music. It's a true sound collage as The Beatles are not playing over the track. Lumpy Gravy actually uses session players or musicians.
What I don't think you understand while many of these subgenres were being developed in rock The Beatles were going away from what the norm was.
For example.
"Eleanor Rigby"- No rock instruments/integral backing is string octet
"Love You To"- Based on Indian musical structure/mode/integral backing Indian Instrumentation.
"Tomorrow Never Knows"- Based on one or two chords/altered vocal/ integral use of sampling/loops and up-front drum beat. One of the first true psychedelic rock songs and important influence on modern electronic music.
"Revolution #9"- Track based solely on sampling/found sounds/tape loops.
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 17:11
^ *sigh*
Use of sitar on "Norwegian Wood" was important. However, all the other mores were not used there! That was what was so important about "Eight Miles High", "Love You To", and half the importance of "Tomorrow Never Knows". And, again, "Eight Miles High" came first and probably had influence.
Wikipedia's baroque pop page mentions those Beach Boys records. You are changing genres and history.
While there is a difference between "Revolution 9" and Lumpy Gravy, it is the same stock. What's really frustrating is that you can't see the similarities. And concrete composers did both before them, especially what John did with "9". Also Yoko, who's the one who got John doing it in the first place.
Those new subgenres were already away from the norm. What I don't think you understand is that the Beatles, massively influential and excellent as they were, were not the end all be all of '60's era experimentation.
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 18:19
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
...The Beatles use of the sitar on "Norwegian Wood" which is the first rock/pop song to use the sitar...
Nope. The Kinks beat them by a few months.
RE: "Revolution #9"...that was inspired by the work of Karlheinz Stockhausen (specifically his 1967 piece "Hymnen"), so there's nothing revolutionary about it.
This thread has proven that The Beatles never existed, so let's stop talking about them. Let's talk about a real band like Milli Vanilli:
Joined: January 07 2012
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 18:27
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ *sigh*
Use of sitar on "Norwegian Wood" was important. However, all the other mores were not used there! That was what was so important about "Eight Miles High", "Love You To", and half the importance of "Tomorrow Never Knows". And, again, "Eight Miles High" came first and probably had influence.
Wikipedia's baroque pop page mentions those Beach Boys records. You are changing genres and history.
While there is a difference between "Revolution 9" and Lumpy Gravy, it is the same stock. What's really frustrating is that you can't see the similarities. And concrete composers did both before them, especially what John did with "9". Also Yoko, who's the one who got John doing it in the first place.
Those new subgenres were already away from the norm. What I don't think you understand is that the Beatles, massively influential and excellent as they were, were not the end all be all of '60's era experimentation.
Let's get things straight "Norwegian Wood" was recorded and released before "Eight Miles High". Also if you listen to the Anthology version of "Norwegian Wood" or take 2 of "Norwegian Wood" the Beatles were already heading in that psychedelic/raga kind of music.
I don't take Wikipedia seriously and honestly do you think "She's Not There" as Baroque Pop? A great song but Baroque Pop not in the least. You think The Beatles "Blackbird" is Baroque Pop because it's influenced by classical music. Please give some example of a Beach Boys song that is a full blown Baroque Pop song before "Yesterday". Even if you can find an example who cares as it hard not to credit "Yesterday" massive influence or popularity.
I already don't need to say this but Paul was the one who introduced Stockhausen or musique concrete to The Beatles not Yoko. Again they were using it for a year before Zappa got to Lumpy Gravy.
Lastly of course I don't think The Beatles were involved in every advancement in rock music but their influence is so encompassing that are the same band that they are the same band who influenced King Crimson and The Monkees.
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 18:28
zravkapt wrote:
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
...The Beatles use of the sitar on "Norwegian Wood" which is the first rock/pop song to use the sitar...
Nope. The Kinks beat them by a few months.
RE: "Revolution #9"...that was inspired by the work of Karlheinz Stockhausen (specifically his 1967 piece "Hymnen"), so there's nothing revolutionary about it.
This thread has proven that The Beatles never existed, so let's stop talking about them. Let's talk about a real band like Milli Vanilli:
Uh no use of the sitar on "See My Friends" sorry.
Every musician has influences or inspirations so if Lennon took inspiration from someone like Stockhausen. I don't see the relevance of your statement. You don't think Hendrix took inspiration from blues greats but was he derivative?
Joined: November 09 2014
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 18:58
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ *sigh*
Use of sitar on "Norwegian Wood" was important. However, all the other mores were not used there! That was what was so important about "Eight Miles High", "Love You To", and half the importance of "Tomorrow Never Knows". And, again, "Eight Miles High" came first and probably had influence.
Wikipedia's baroque pop page mentions those Beach Boys records. You are changing genres and history.
While there is a difference between "Revolution 9" and Lumpy Gravy, it is the same stock. What's really frustrating is that you can't see the similarities. And concrete composers did both before them, especially what John did with "9". Also Yoko, who's the one who got John doing it in the first place.
Those new subgenres were already away from the norm. What I don't think you understand is that the Beatles, massively influential and excellent as they were, were not the end all be all of '60's era experimentation.
Let's get things straight "Norwegian Wood" was recorded and released before "Eight Miles High". Also if you listen to the Anthology version of "Norwegian Wood" or take 2 of "Norwegian Wood" the Beatles were already heading in that psychedelic/raga kind of music.
I don't take Wikipedia seriously and honestly do you think "She's Not There" as Baroque Pop? A great song but Baroque Pop not in the least. You think The Beatles "Blackbird" is Baroque Pop because it's influenced by classical music. Please give some example of a Beach Boys song that is a full blown Baroque Pop song before "Yesterday". Even if you can find an example who cares as it hard not to credit "Yesterday" massive influence or popularity.
I already don't need to say this but Paul was the one who introduced Stockhausen or musique concrete to The Beatles not Yoko. Again they were using it for a year before Zappa got to Lumpy Gravy.
Lastly of course I don't think The Beatles were involved in every advancement in rock music but their influence is so encompassing that are the same band that they are the same band who influenced King Crimson and The Monkees.
You clearly don't get my point about "Norwegian Wood": there, the sitar is played like a guitar. "Love You To"'s addition to the canon of Indian influences in rock was actually playing the sitar the way they do in India: in this case, using it to make drones. That's what I meant when I mentioned mores, and why "Eight Miles High" is still first in Indian influences - not with sitar, but the precedent setter all the same.
The reason Wikipedia says that they are baroque pop is because that's what every credible critic says about it. They get sources. Ergo, you are completely and utterly wrong and any of those aforementioned music critics would laugh in your face. To say those albums are not baroque pop is literal insanity at this point.
Of course Paul introduced John to Stockhausen, but John only started creating concrete when he met Yoko. They cut Unfinished Music Vol. 1. This then led John to create "Revolution 9". And use of tape loops in "Tomorrow Never Knows" doesn't completely ape Lumpy Gravy. As you said before when it was beneficial for you: differences!
And no sitar on "See My Friends"? Now you're just being dishonest. EDIT: Apologies, only found out about the track when Zravkapt brought it up, didn't know that it was a stellar illusion.
^ See My Friends featured a pseudo-Indian drone
and a very convincing approximation of a sitar played by Dave Davies on a standard electric guitar (there may also have been some outboard effects added to abet the illusion)
Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 22:16
Lear'sFool wrote:
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ *sigh*
Use of sitar on "Norwegian Wood" was important. However, all the other mores were not used there! That was what was so important about "Eight Miles High", "Love You To", and half the importance of "Tomorrow Never Knows". And, again, "Eight Miles High" came first and probably had influence.
Wikipedia's baroque pop page mentions those Beach Boys records. You are changing genres and history.
While there is a difference between "Revolution 9" and Lumpy Gravy, it is the same stock. What's really frustrating is that you can't see the similarities. And concrete composers did both before them, especially what John did with "9". Also Yoko, who's the one who got John doing it in the first place.
Those new subgenres were already away from the norm. What I don't think you understand is that the Beatles, massively influential and excellent as they were, were not the end all be all of '60's era experimentation.
Let's get things straight "Norwegian Wood" was recorded and released before "Eight Miles High". Also if you listen to the Anthology version of "Norwegian Wood" or take 2 of "Norwegian Wood" the Beatles were already heading in that psychedelic/raga kind of music.
I don't take Wikipedia seriously and honestly do you think "She's Not There" as Baroque Pop? A great song but Baroque Pop not in the least. You think The Beatles "Blackbird" is Baroque Pop because it's influenced by classical music. Please give some example of a Beach Boys song that is a full blown Baroque Pop song before "Yesterday". Even if you can find an example who cares as it hard not to credit "Yesterday" massive influence or popularity.
I already don't need to say this but Paul was the one who introduced Stockhausen or musique concrete to The Beatles not Yoko. Again they were using it for a year before Zappa got to Lumpy Gravy.
Lastly of course I don't think The Beatles were involved in every advancement in rock music but their influence is so encompassing that are the same band that they are the same band who influenced King Crimson and The Monkees.
You clearly don't get my point about "Norwegian Wood": there, the sitar is played like a guitar. "Love You To"'s addition to the canon of Indian influences in rock was actually playing the sitar the way they do in India: in this case, using it to make drones. That's what I meant when I mentioned mores, and why "Eight Miles High" is still first in Indian influences - not with sitar, but the precedent setter all the same.
The reason Wikipedia says that they are baroque pop is because that's what every credible critic says about it. They get sources. Ergo, you are completely and utterly wrong and any of those aforementioned music critics would laugh in your face. To say those albums are not baroque pop is literal insanity at this point.
Of course Paul introduced John to Stockhausen, but John only started creating concrete when he met Yoko. They cut Unfinished Music Vol. 1. This then led John to create "Revolution 9". And use of tape loops in "Tomorrow Never Knows" doesn't completely ape Lumpy Gravy. As you said before when it was beneficial for you: differences!
And no sitar on "See My Friends"? Now you're just being dishonest. It is clearly there.
Jeff Beck originally played a sitar in place of guitar on Heart Full of Soul, and a more Indian style of percussion was employed in 1965:
But that version was never released. Beck decided mimicking a sitar with his guitar gave the song a lot more power:
Wait, was that Jeff Beck or Nigel Tufnel?
Edited by The Dark Elf - January 24 2015 at 22:17
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 22:30
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ See My Friends featured a pseudo-Indian drone
and a very convincing approximation of a sitar played by Dave Davies on a standard electric guitar (there may also have been some outboard effects added to abet the illusion)
Being that a known emulation of sitar on guitar, the aforementioned "Heart Full of Soul", is clearly a guitar, I'm not sure what to make this. I see no evidence of it in a cursory search - but neither does it confirm an actual sitar.
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Posted: January 24 2015 at 22:31
Lear'sFool wrote:
^ I hadn't known that the sitar version of "Heart Full of Soul" was ever recorded. This changes a lot.
Yes, but for sake of argument, The Beatles' George Harrison gets the nod for being the first Brit playing the sitar on a released single (Norwegian Wood, The Yardbirds never released the sitar version of Heart Full of Soul until 19 years later). The Kink's song is indeed a guitar approximation of a sitar, but not a real sitar.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Posted: January 25 2015 at 05:54
Lear'sFool wrote:
You clearly don't get my point about "Norwegian Wood": there, the sitar is played like a guitar. "Love You To"'s addition to the canon of Indian influences in rock was actually playing the sitar the way they do in India: in this case, using it to make drones. That's what I meant when I mentioned mores, and why "Eight Miles High" is still first in Indian influences - not with sitar, but the precedent setter all the same.
Indian influences......As already established, Yardbirds' Heart Full Of Soul was released June '65 a month before Kinks' See My Friend. Slotted in between this and Norwegian Wood, we have - not mentioned earlier - The Byrds' Stranger In A Strange Land, recorded September '65 but not released until many years later I believe. No doubt Byrds had Indian influences and where able to fascinate Lennon and Harrison with raga when they met in August '65 two months before Norwegian Wood was recorded. BTW it has never been verified that Harrison actually was the sitarist on Love You Too.
I don't see any evidence that Eight MIies High is the first in Indian influences and the precedent setter at the time. The sitar was already a part of the alternative culture, cf. Seventh Sons' Raga.
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Posted: January 25 2015 at 07:07
Lear'sFool wrote:
As well, it was still The Byrds who introduced the sitar to George. They met in person before Help! was cut.
The Byrds didn't introduce the sitar to Harrison. McGuinn, Crosby, Lennon and Harrison met in August '65 and discussed Ravi Shankar among other things. Lennon got inspired by the raga phrases he heard during the meeting. There wasn't a sitar present at the meeting, btw. Harrison got interested in the sitar during the filming of Help! or thereabout.
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Posted: January 25 2015 at 09:55
earlyprog wrote:
Lear'sFool wrote:
You clearly don't get my point about "Norwegian Wood": there, the sitar is played like a guitar. "Love You To"'s addition to the canon of Indian influences in rock was actually playing the sitar the way they do in India: in this case, using it to make drones. That's what I meant when I mentioned mores, and why "Eight Miles High" is still first in Indian influences - not with sitar, but the precedent setter all the same.
Indian influences......As already established, Yardbirds' Heart Full Of Soul was released June '65 a month before Kinks' See My Friend. Slotted in between this and Norwegian Wood, we have - not mentioned earlier - The Byrds' Stranger In A Strange Land, recorded September '65 but not released until many years later I believe. No doubt Byrds had Indian influences and where able to fascinate Lennon and Harrison with raga when they met in August '65 two months before Norwegian Wood was recorded. BTW it has never been verified that Harrison actually was the sitarist on Love You Too.
I don't see any evidence that Eight MIies High is the first in Indian influences and the precedent setter at the time. The sitar was already a part of the alternative culture, cf. Seventh Sons' Raga.
What you're missing is what you quoted of mine: that the use of sitar before Fifth Dimension and Revolver was not in the way they are used in India. Just because you use a certain instrument doesn't mean all the influences associated with it immediately come with it, nor does lack of it mean you can't use those influences. Just because jazz musicians use guitars doesn't mean they are all fusion; it's in how they use it. Just because there are no African instruments on Remain In Light doesn't mean it's not African influenced; it's in how they used their rock instruments.
"Eight Miles High" actually introduced Indian musical mores. The end.
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