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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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No, rather I think both myself and Dean have said you cannot use aggression to describe the nature of the tactical approach used, in the sense of a tendency to move forward or tendency to attack. Since aggressive means "likely to attack", the term (rather than a single word) aggressive tactics conveys it better. And as I said earlier, the more common usage always was attacking or offensive tennis. Offensive and attacking are closer antonyms of defensive and make more sense. Using an adjective to describe the kind of tennis a player is playing makes more sense to me than to use a noun. So instead of saying "Federer played attacking tennis", I might substitute it with "Federer was aggressive in his approach". The latter is less precise but might still be understood in context. However, if I said, "Federer showed aggression", it would imply that he did stuff like baring his teeth angrily to his opponent or yelled at the umpire. The bald, unqualified statement "Federer was aggressive" could also be easily misinterpreted. As between aggressiveness and aggression, aggressiveness is a better word to use in this context (which is why it has now come into usage) but for aesthetic reasons, I would much rather use aggressive with an appropriate noun following it to describe what was aggressive. Or, I would much rather not use any word from that family in that context and stick to attacking or offensive. All of which might explain why I was puzzled when I heard aggressiveness in sports commentary.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I think the confusion here is over whether aggressive implies a confrontational attitude or simply a competitive or driving approach. The answer is it can mean both depending on the context. And I think what Hackettfan means when he says attack in sport is a metaphor is that you do not literally attack, as in physically assault, the opponent. You tactically force yourself on him within the rules of that sport. So in boxing, attacking does come very close or in fact amounts to an actual physical assault whereas in tennis it would simply mean trying to take the net away and finish the point and in cricket, using the front foot and driving rather than blocking the ball. In chess, it would mean forcing a move from the opponent that would involve loss of coins for either side. In all of the last three contexts, there is no actual assault, it's only attacking within the limited context of the game. But since attacking, unlike aggressive, is not used in a behavioural context at all (where aggressive is contrasted in a negative light with assertive), I prefer the former in a sporting context.
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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^ Perhaps there has been contamination from other languages where the distinction is more definite, such as Spanish. In Spanish we have:
Agresion (noun) Agresividad (noun) Agresivo (adjective) (Agredir is the verb but I don't think it's relevant for this) So we have two nouns linked to the same adjective and verb, and in Spanish the distinction between the two is clear. Agresion is a fact, it is the fact of acting against someone or something, or of breaking the rules or the generally accepted correct behaviour. Agresividad is taking risks, it is showing no fear, it is putting your opponents against the wall, stressing them. It is taking the lead, in a way the opposite of being prudent or conservative. It is an attitude, not a definite act. Depending on the situation such an attitude could result in harm to others but not necessarily. A racing driver may drive with "agresividad" and that means that he is increasing the risks of anything nasty happening, but it does not mean that he has actually caused anything nasty yet. He may drive with "agresividad" and the race ends happily without anything bad having happened. But the term may also be used for a tennis player who constantly pushes his opponent to the limits, or someone who gambles taking risks and causing his opponents to take risks higher than they would normally do etc, and in these situations if it goes wrong it will not result in any harm to the opponent, only to himself. Agresion implies that something nasty or at least considered incorrect has actually happened, it is not merely taking risks but actually having caused something undesirable. Because of this distinction in my mother language I tend to equate "aggressiveness" more with "agresividad" and "aggression" with "agresion" even if that's probably not the actual proper use in English.
Edited by Gerinski - August 18 2014 at 01:31 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I see what you are saying but I don't see that 'attacking' (and thus 'aggressive') is figurative (or 'metaphoric') in these contexts just because it isn't a physical attack. When you fall in love the 'fall' is figurative, but when you attack an opponent in a sporting game the 'attack' is not figurative, the meaning does not magically switch from literal to figurative when the action does not involve physical contact, it remains the same. Attacks in war-games and military exercises do not become metaphorical just because non-live ammunition is used. Historically all 'sports' were a non-lethal form of military training and every game has an opponent even when competing against yourself. All the terms and synonyms we have used [in these posts] in those non-physical contexts to describe aggressiveness are related to literal attack: confrontation, offence, force, opposition, [to which we can add assault, assail, pounce, strike, storm, grapple, etc.] ... As Todd said, 'getting in someone's face' is related to that and so is 'advance' and 'push forward', their meaning in these contexts comes from the act of attacking in a literal sense.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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That's interesting Gerard. I looked up Agresividad in Spanish on WordReference.com - it gives two definitions...
(sorry I've used Google Translate, I don't read or speak Spanish):
(Note: It gives a similar Anglicised second meaning for Agresivo) That's not exactly the kind of Anglicising of a Spanish word I was asking about earlier but it is interesting that the modern Spanish meaning has been altered by the usage of the [transliterated] comparable word in America. |
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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^ I didn't know that the Spanish 2nd meaning of "agresividad" was actually an Anglicised meaning coming from American English and I had thought that perhaps it had been the other way around.
In any case, seeing the differentiation of the two meanings, I do not see anything inherently wrong with using two different words. Perhaps strictly speaking, "aggression" would be more correct in English no matter what are we actually meaning, but if the use of "aggressiveness" in certain situations can help in making a distinction, clarifying that we do not mean any factual aggression or attack, but more the Spanish interpretation of "agresividad" (being bold, challenging, ready to take risks etc) I don't see it so bad.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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^ it is more to do with how the word sounds to English ears (and from what Roger has said, Indian ears) than any difference in meaning. We can (and do) appreciate the difference in meaning (and Aggression has the same two related meanings), but prefer to use the verb 'aggressive' with an appropriate noun as an descriptive noun-phrase than use this verbal noun.
Edited by Dean - August 18 2014 at 08:01 |
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Dayvenkirq ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
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I've read this tweet by Jason Fields of Reuters Top News:
Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 18 2014 at 16:39 |
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Dayvenkirq ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
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Now that zachfive mentioned Roger Goodell on the "... American football" thread, I've skimmed through the guy's Wiki page and found a phrase in use: fait accompli. Clicked on it, and this is what I've seen.
Anyone around here in the habit of using foreign phrases in their English writing or speech?
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Dayvenkirq ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
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"Homophonic" vs. "homophonous".
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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Let's wait for the reply of our British friends but I guess that using French expressions is probably more common in the UK than in the US. For me living in the Flemish part of Belgium it's probably even more common since Flemish frequently mix French expressions in their Dutch, and many such expressions may then get carried into their way of speaking English. But I routinely communicate in English with Europeans from other countries and I see that many do use such French expressions as well, or at least they understand them and are not surprised by their use. Many from the list you posted are relatively common, some of the most used: a la carte amateur aperitif or apero cafe (for meaning not the drink but the place) carte blanche femme fatale force majeure liaison motif papier-mache pret-a-porter raison d'etre tete-a-tete "Ciao" and "A rivederci" are Italian expressions also common here in Europe among non-Italians. |
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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There are a few more I can think of: coup de grace, volte face, tour de force. They are used more in written communication than in conversation.
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Dayvenkirq ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
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My point is that there are some un-common foreign phrases and terms that are seldom used by people in writing. Just thought I'd bring up some of them as well.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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A few anecdotes... I was on a training course in Munich many years ago that was run in English. Most of the students were German together with an Austrian, three Englishmen, a Scot, a Frenchman and one Italian. During one of the lunch breaks as the meal was served the Bavarian waiter said 'Bon appétit' much to the amusement of the French guy who responded with 'Merci beaucoup'. This sparked a discussion about the various "foreign" words and phrases that were common between our six countries and the general conclusion was that loaned French and Italian words were predominately about food and drink while English words were mostly about technology (it was a technology course for engineers so that was an inevitable conclusion). Much to the consternation of the Germans, the only German phrases we could think of were 'Zeitgeist' and 'Donner und Blitzen'. Sometime later when we were back in the classroom I sneezed, without thinking Roger (the Scot) said 'gesundheit' and I acknowledged with 'danke schön' ... and all the Germans cheered and applauded. For many years I was puzzled by the use of 'C'est la guerre' in English as I was hearing it as 'C'est la garre', which means "this is the station" and not "this is war". Edited by Dean - August 19 2014 at 03:20 |
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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![]() Once in Japan for work we were having dinner among colleagues, all of us European, and our drink during the whole meal was beer (as is usually the case in Japan) and we had had quite a few each of us... When we were done, I ordered "the bill please" in English, as I barely know a couple of words in Japanese. As you know Japanese people have some trouble discerning the sounds of "r" and "l" (if they should talk about Roger Taylor they will pronounce something like Logel Taylol was a gleat drummel). To our surprise the guy came back with one more beer for each of us, he had understood "beer please!" (we did not refuse it ![]() |
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Padraic ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
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One of my favorites is "oriented / orientated" (US/UK) |
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HolyMoly ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: April 01 2009 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 26138 |
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![]() I have a similar story. When I was a kid, my family visited another family who was from Finland. The father of that family was a visiting professor at the university where my father taught, and they had been in the country only a short while. Most of the family spoke very little English. We were served dinner, and when the mother came around to take our plates at the end of the meal, she made a gesture asking if it was okay to take my plate. I politely said, "yes thanks, I'm finished." She looked puzzled and paused a moment. I repeated what I said, and then realized the confusion. "Done. I'm done, I mean." |
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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'tis a good one and another that shows how British English evolves faster than American English. It's also an example of a noun used as a verb that the Brits tend to avoid. Orient was originally a noun meaning "East", as a verb it meant to align with the points of a compass, namely 'East', from this we get the noun Orientation. Orientate is a back-formation from this new noun, and since we like to avoid nouns and verbs we made a new verb Orientate to replace Orient, allowing us to keep the original "East" meaning. It means we can say Orient Express with out thinking it means Alignment Express
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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You write 'with out' as two separate words which feels awkward to me (?)
Sorry to be nit picky but since we are in a letters thread, 'C'est la gare' would be written with only one 'r'.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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That was a typo - It is awkward, and wrong. ![]()
That's another typo. ![]() Unfortunately I'm dyslexic, which is why I make so many errors, (all of my "edits' are to correct spelling errors). On the up-side it is also why I have a fascination with words and grammar.
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