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Topic ClosedWorldwide solidarity with Gaza

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Gamemako View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:37
Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

This is not an assumption buddy. I hope you've heard about the tunnels they were building


Once again, it would help if you weren't so ignorant of the reality. Tunnels aren't a new business; they're a direct consequence of the stranglehold your country places on the territory.

Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:


I'm not sure you get it, the bombing of hospitals and schools were intentional not a mistake we could avoid with technology. The UN was amazed that these facilities were used as a weapon storage and a good hide out for their terrorists, well you the what's the military's answer to that right?


At the risk of using a somewhat dubious source, this is a pretty accurate characterization of "intentional" strikes. Israel shoots on evidence that Dubyah would consider dodgy and targets unrelated locations just to be sure. They later released images showing a justification that just kinda makes no sense -- nevermind the site's agenda-driven hyperbole, but the IDF image showed an entirely different location.

Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

...the Palestinians have never gave up on a single demand, they wanna win the jack pot or they'll burn you alive.


Pot, meet kettle.

Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

Gamemako, then you really don't know what you're talking about, it isn't paranoia it's a fact!
Just check out their children's kindergardens songs and the stuff they are being brainwashed with. They are being taught to hate, again this is a fact, you can check it out yourself.


Kettle, meet pot.

This is why international force is required to address the problem. The Palestinian militants are like militant black supremacists in the United States in the 1950s: oppressed, hated, enslaved; men of sympathetic cause taking their indignation far beyond the pale. However, unlike the American civil rights movement, the physical borders and a thoroughly-racist reason for Israel even existing prevent a solution. Israel still leeches Palestinian resources, treating them as subhumans and using their resistance as a justification to take more. Israel grows fat on the spoils, plundering at home and abroad while claiming a moral superiority.

Not that there's necessarily one best solution, or that any solution is easy to implement. A true two-state solution would likely mean war with Palestine and possibly Israel as well; a one-state solution would likely result in war with Israel. In any case, the geopolitical landscape will pull things one way or the other. The specifics would take a painful amount of time and fighting to achieve if the plan even worked, and the world just won't have the stomach for that for some time after the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:38
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I tend to side with the under dog and that is not Israel.  Who has who boxed in here?  Who has all the superior weaponry?  Who has the love of Fox "News" ???
I tend to agree with you but then I'm no expert on this conflict which goes back a very long time.
Rich powerful people in the west (and the history books can tell anyone the tale of how it was done..)  who supported both Christianity and Jewish monotheism in the early 20th century decided that the Jews deserved their 'homeland' back and the wheels were set in motion and voila they now have Israel. Obviously that's a simplification but in the end the Palestinians  and others were disenfranchised as a result and  the real hostilities began....at least that's how I understand it from what I read many years ago about setting up of the 'Arab' states and Israel back then.
It seems that if more care had ben taken to create a proper Palestinian state back then with as much care as went into the Israeli one we might not have the conflict today. Again I am no expert on this and I'm sure if I have erred in my understanding someone will correct me. Is this all about religion or land......or just old scores to settle?
Having said that I certainly don't think that lobbing missiles into Israel will help anyone feel sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 11:22
[QUOTE=Sagichim] ^ Well it seems you got the situation figuered out now didn't you?


yep sorted! thanks!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 11:35
Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

 
I think what lacks here is a fundamental understanding of what Hamas's goals are, what are their day to day activities and how they think is the best way of achieving their freedom.
What do you mean by "achieving their freedom"? Are not they free now?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 12:48
It must suck having to live under an Iron Dome supported by my tax money, nearly as much as it must suck to have everything you know and everyone you love blown up because someone thought a militant leader lived there. Or just because an Isreali missile missed and leveled a whole block. I have some sympathy for Israel, but Gaza is at the mercy of a much overpowered nation. It is an occupation. Look at the death tolls for each side. And spare the human shield line. It's getting old.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 13:33

In reading all the ‘supposed’ experts on this thread, I find it shocking that very few seem to have visited the Middle east and therefore , are fueling their opinions based on second and third party information/propaganda . Having been ‘there’ and being a military history student, a few FACTS must be presented, because of the highly SELECTIVE arguments being used by some here.

1-      In 1948, the PARTITION of the UN Palestine mandate, called for a Jewish state (Israel) and a Palestinian state. David Ben –Gurion pleaded on radio for Arabs to join Jews in creating a land together. The grand Mufti of JerusalemHaj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini (a devout Muslim and WW2 Nazi collaborator) ordered the Arabs to leave on radio, having convinced the Arab neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lenanon, Irak) that they “will throw all the Jews into the sea”.

2-      There are some who claim that Israel is a false nation created to ghetto-ize European Jews, hence stealing land from the Arabs. Well, I am happy to report that there are Sephardic Jews who originally where expelled from their homeland and sought refuge in Morocco, Spain, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Irak and Turkey. Their traditions and culture are entirely Arabic in nature. In fact, Israeli culture and Arabic culture share many customs since they have been living there since the dawn of time. The claim of apartheid is ludicrous and patently false.

3-      “Israel is committing genocide”. Perhaps you are not aware that there are almost 2 million Arab Israelis in the original, non-occupied territories, who not only are citizens with a VOTE but also are in the Israeli army. They are the descendants of the ones who stayed and did not become refugees at the begging of the Mufti. They are attorneys, lawyers, politicians, policemen, taxi drivers etc…I saw Arab villages near Haifa, cafes with both obvious religions in discussion with each other, Arabs are everywhere in Israel. No torture or genocide there. I know of no Jewish ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, AlQeida, Al Shahhabb or Taliban, they are no Hebrew videos of public beheadings, mass shootings, stoning and throat slashings.  

4-      Proportional? The Israelis use missiles to protect their civilians and Hamas uses its civilians to protect its missiles. This is another fact conveniently forgotten. The Israelis already pulled out of Gaza in 2005 while still supplying water and electricity, and then having entire villages evacuated by the Jews razed, pillaged and burnt to the ground by vengeful Hamas militants. The Hamas reaction? Build tunnels, not to protect its people but to infiltrate and fight the ‘Zionist’ enemy.

5-      Hypocrisy. Over 300.000 Syrians have died in the Civil war there. Sunni and Shiite going at it full bore. Who cries for them? Argentina?

6-      Finally, as always with conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion. So I ask, please go there, visit the antagonists, talk with them. Every single Israeli I have talked with is just DYING for peace, praying for it.

 We live in a complicated world where responsible governments must abide by certain principles, such as the right to exist in peace with their neighbors. Unfortunately, the Muslim (not just the Arab) world is a newborn in terms of institutionalizing democratic elections with multiple political parties (which is why the Arab Spring happened in the first place), Hamas is an ARMED political party that has only one mission as per its charter, the expulsion of all Jews from the Holy Land. Why should Israel accept threats to its existence? Would you accept a militarized ARMED political party ruling your country? Be it Belgium, Russia or Serbia? Or Canada, Spain and France? There are no democratic political parties available in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, UAE, etc….

Would you leave your home if your neighbor pelts you with eggs, hurls abuse at your children or threatens to kill you every single day since the dawn of time? Maybe the correct cure would be for Israel to cease to exist altogether, send them all back to loving countries like Uganda or the Russian Far East. That is not going to happen. Get over it and make peace.

The irony of course is that a two-state situation where Palestinians and Israelis would create an economic powerhouse that would quickly overtake the oil drenched autocrats with new technologies, irrigation, farming, science etc..Living in harmony , together. 

We all pray for resolution and salvation. 

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 14:16
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:


...

of course, Hamas is not Israeli though

I don't care. You don't fight sociopathic behavior with more sociopathic behavior. 
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 15:23
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

In reading all the ‘supposed’ experts on this thread, I find it shocking that very few seem to have visited the Middle east and therefore , are fueling their opinions based on second and third party information/propaganda . Having been ‘there’ and being a military history student, a few FACTS must be presented, because of the highly SELECTIVE arguments being used by some here.

1-      In 1948, the PARTITION of the UN Palestine mandate, called for a Jewish state (Israel) and a Palestinian state. David Ben –Gurion pleaded on radio for Arabs to join Jews in creating a land together. The grand Mufti of JerusalemHaj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini (a devout Muslim and WW2 Nazi collaborator) ordered the Arabs to leave on radio, having convinced the Arab neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lenanon, Irak) that they “will throw all the Jews into the sea”.

2-      There are some who claim that Israel is a false nation created to ghetto-ize European Jews, hence stealing land from the Arabs. Well, I am happy to report that there are Sephardic Jews who originally where expelled from their homeland and sought refuge in Morocco, Spain, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Irak and Turkey. Their traditions and culture are entirely Arabic in nature. In fact, Israeli culture and Arabic culture share many customs since they have been living there since the dawn of time. The claim of apartheid is ludicrous and patently false.

3-      “Israel is committing genocide”. Perhaps you are not aware that there are almost 2 million Arab Israelis in the original, non-occupied territories, who not only are citizens with a VOTE but also are in the Israeli army. They are the descendants of the ones who stayed and did not become refugees at the begging of the Mufti. They are attorneys, lawyers, politicians, policemen, taxi drivers etc…I saw Arab villages near Haifa, cafes with both obvious religions in discussion with each other, Arabs are everywhere in Israel. No torture or genocide there. I know of no Jewish ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, AlQeida, Al Shahhabb or Taliban, they are no Hebrew videos of public beheadings, mass shootings, stoning and throat slashings.  

4-      Proportional? The Israelis use missiles to protect their civilians and Hamas uses its civilians to protect its missiles. This is another fact conveniently forgotten. The Israelis already pulled out of Gaza in 2005 while still supplying water and electricity, and then having entire villages evacuated by the Jews razed, pillaged and burnt to the ground by vengeful Hamas militants. The Hamas reaction? Build tunnels, not to protect its people but to infiltrate and fight the ‘Zionist’ enemy.

5-      Hypocrisy. Over 300.000 Syrians have died in the Civil war there. Sunni and Shiite going at it full bore. Who cries for them? Argentina?

6-      Finally, as always with conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion. So I ask, please go there, visit the antagonists, talk with them. Every single Israeli I have talked with is just DYING for peace, praying for it.

 We live in a complicated world where responsible governments must abide by certain principles, such as the right to exist in peace with their neighbors. Unfortunately, the Muslim (not just the Arab) world is a newborn in terms of institutionalizing democratic elections with multiple political parties (which is why the Arab Spring happened in the first place), Hamas is an ARMED political party that has only one mission as per its charter, the expulsion of all Jews from the Holy Land. Why should Israel accept threats to its existence? Would you accept a militarized ARMED political party ruling your country? Be it Belgium, Russia or Serbia? Or Canada, Spain and France? There are no democratic political parties available in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, UAE, etc….

Would you leave your home if your neighbor pelts you with eggs, hurls abuse at your children or threatens to kill you every single day since the dawn of time? Maybe the correct cure would be for Israel to cease to exist altogether, send them all back to loving countries like Uganda or the Russian Far East. That is not going to happen. Get over it and make peace.

The irony of course is that a two-state situation where Palestinians and Israelis would create an economic powerhouse that would quickly overtake the oil drenched autocrats with new technologies, irrigation, farming, science etc..Living in harmony , together. 

We all pray for resolution and salvation. 


 I have not been to the Holy Land, and it is unlikely I ever will. My comments here are, though, based upon a lifetime of both political interest and political activism.

I have to say that this is the wisest post I have ever seen on this site. It is historically accurate, morally spot on, and brings a refreshing honesty to this debate.

I fully share the sentiments that a unified Israel and Palestine would create an economic, political, military, and, hopefully, morally superior force to all the chaos that surrounds in this part of the world. It would mean, though, a huge leap of faith and change for Palestinians to come away from the lemming mentality, and get rid, not only of so called revolutionaries, but now, revolutionaries with all of the religious bigotry and zealotry that I sincerely believe is perpetuating a shocking situation for so many innocent people.

Thank you Thomas.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 19:52
Indeed Steve.  Great post Thomas. 



On a completely unrelated note...Thomas...how in the hell did you get numbers 1-6 to appear on the left side of that divider line?  Or is that only appearing that way on my browser?Wacko
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 19:57
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Indeed Steve.  Great post Thomas. 



On a completely unrelated note...Thomas...how in the hell did you get numbers 1-6 to appear on the left side of that divider line?  Or is that only appearing that way on my browser?Wacko

I'm getting the same thing, but it wasn't like that a few hours ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 20:43
There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 20:50
^^ just like there is so much anti-(you write it down) sentiments towards other groups of people. It's nothing new T. It's been like that for hundreds and hundreds of years

Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - July 27 2014 at 20:51
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 23:47
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Indeed Steve.  Great post Thomas. 



On a completely unrelated note...Thomas...how in the hell did you get numbers 1-6 to appear on the left side of that divider line?  Or is that only appearing that way on my browser?Wacko

Contrary to my post, I have no idea???ConfusedBig smile
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 01:08
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...


I personally don't care one way or another about Jews in particular, but too often people want to let things slide for fear of having the anti-Semite card thrown at them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:38
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...


I personally don't care one way or another about Jews in particular, but too often people want to let things slide for fear of having the anti-Semite card thrown at them.
 
What is a bit troublesome is that  it seems that if one criticizes the Jewish position, for whatever reason, either here or abroad they often get called anti-semite.
Confused
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:58
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:


I personally don't care one way or another about Jews in particular, but too often people want to let things slide for fear of having the anti-Semite card thrown at them.


Like how it's impossible to say that Schindler's List was a bad movie without being called a neo-Nazi.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 10:26
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...

You know there are a bunch of Neo-Nazis around Wink.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 10:32
Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...

You know there are a bunch of Neo-Nazis around Wink.
Oh but those are good old overt anti-semites. More dangerous are the covert ones Tongue


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 10:37
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

There's so much veiled anti-semitism in the world today...

You know there are a bunch of Neo-Nazis around Wink.
Oh but those are good old overt anti-semites. More dangerous are the covert ones Tongue



Good one!
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