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King Crimson776
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 19:44 |
I agree, Animals is tedious. Meddle followed by WYWH are my favorites. Some of the best atmosphere in rock music. Generally I find their music lacking in content though.
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Horizons
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 20:04 |
Animals is tedious but not Meddle? Do you find having more than half of the tracks being boring/awful acoustic songs a good thing?
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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King Crimson776
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 20:46 |
Fearless and A Pillow of Winds are some of the best boring music ever.
It's very relaxing, in the right mood. Echoes in itself makes the album a
contender though. Animals just kind of meanders on with that heavy,
pretentious feel and no content to back it up. At least be lighthearted
if your music is lightweight. Some of those climaxes seem good but I
find myself not caring after the rest of the dreary track.
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Dellinger
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 21:47 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Let me put it this way, WYWH is the album that works best for a general audience rather than a hardcore PF audience. It has a singalong easy acoustic track and a lush, emotional epic with more of a traditional prog structure. Notice how many hardcore Genesis fans insist Nursery Cryme is their best album while prog fans in general gravitate to SEBTP. WYWH performs the same function with respect to Floyd. It is not surprising that WYWH often gets hailed as their best but as a Floyd fan, I would not agree. There are parts that I find positively dreary though on the whole I do like it a lot.
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Well, I am certainly a Floyd fan, and as such, I can say that my favourite Floyd album is Wish you were Here. And do you know which is Gilmour's favourite Floyd album? Wish you were Here itself. So, I guess it's not a matter of being a Floyd fand or a prog fan or a 70's classic rock fan or whatever, it's just a matter of taste. |
I never said WYWH is a bad album or that it shouldn't be anybody's favourite album. Well, I think you would relate to my point better if you looked at the RYM charts for Pink Floyd. WYWH (4.31) and DSOTM (4.29) are comfortably at the top (with WYWH edging out even DSOTM) while Animals is quite a bit lower at 4.12 and Meddle even lower at 4.02. My point is simply that as a hardcore Floyd fan, I simply don't see this huge gap between WYWH and say Animals or Wall. Animals may not deliver the same experience as WYWH but it's just a different side of the band. A hardcore fan tends to embrace more facets of a band while a casual fan is more interested in the ones that tick all the 'must have' boxes of the genre. In Floyd's case, from a prog perspective, that album is WYWH so it's not surprising it is rated the highest. Ditto with SEBTP. It's not that I don't like the album and I have personally rated both Cryme and SEBTP the same. But I just don't see this gulf between Cryme and SEBTP; it's a different side of the band, that's all. At the same time, I do understand why non fans or casual fans would gravitate towards WYWH or SEBTP respectively and far be it for me to grudge their choice. |
I never thought you meant to say that WYWH was a bad album, but you said that Floyd fans wouldn't consider it their favourite, as oposed to prog fans but not particularly Floyd fans. And as a Floyd fan, I can tell you that's not true, my favourite one is WYWH. However, I agree with you, I don't see such a huge gap between WYWH and Animals... as a matter of fact, I might actually have some trouble choosing my favourite of the two, and Animals has been winning in my apreciation vs WYWH. As for The Wall, I do find a notable gap in my apreciation for that album vs the other two.
As for Genesis, there I might say I'm not a hardcore fan of the band, but I certainly like SEBTP best from them (and if it were not for Epping Forest it would be a no brainer 5 star for me), and I certainly like it better than Cryme, mainly because on Cryme, the only long song I do like is Musical Box, and I find the other ones rather annoying (even though the album does have some lovely shorter songs).
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 22:11 |
rogerthat wrote:
M27Barney wrote:
Strangely, though (and you cannot prove otherwise as its a fact) clearly as earth is slowing down in it's spin! Each day is in fact slightly longer than the last! so as you get older the days are actually getting longer (not shorter). The child's perception of time is seemingly different than of an older adult! But this perception difference is very hard to quantify as it is clearly different depending on the context that the brain is using when parsing the effect of actual time against perceived time!!!
Regardless, Animals & WYWH and Meddle (Echoes) are all far superior from a prog point of view! Who would disagree?? |
I think the lines quite clearly, read with context, refer to our perception of time, to the 'time is running out' cliche. Because scientifically speaking, it's not the sun that's going down and coming up behind you again. '
And I would disagree with your second para, since you asked. I consider DSOTM lyrically superior to all those three albums and there's also an overall coherence which kind of makes it one long prog epic rather than a bunch of songs. If you look at it as a bunch of songs and disregard the lyrics, you are not going to like DSOTM very much indeed. |
You're right, Roger. The lyrics to "Time" are metaphoric and refer to how we "fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way", and the feeling that years get shorter as you get older until in essence one runs out of time. But then the lyrics get very specific with "The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older". So obviously Barney is not at all clear on the concept, and his argument collapses like a fat girl on a wobbly barstool.
What Barney utterly fails to understand is that DSotM is a better concept album than either WYWH or Animals. The lyrics are indeed superb, and the transitions from one song to the next are brilliant and seamless. In conceptual implementation, lyrical continuity, engineering and sound innovation DSotM is a progressive landmark, and I mean progressive in every sense of the word.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Mirror Image
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Posted: April 15 2014 at 22:37 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
You're right, Roger. The lyrics to "Time" are metaphoric and refer to how we "fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way", and the feeling that years get shorter as you get older until in essence one runs out of time. But then the lyrics get very specific with "The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older". So obviously Barney is not at all clear on the concept, and his argument collapses like a fat girl on a wobbly barstool.
What Barney utterly fails to understand is that DSotM is a better concept album than either WYWH or Animals. The lyrics are indeed superb, and the transitions from one song to the next are brilliant and seamless. In conceptual implementation, lyrical continuity, engineering and sound innovation DSotM is a progressive landmark, and I mean progressive in every sense of the word. |
So much truth in this post that it really made me smile and anyone who cannot at least acknowledge Dark Side of the Moon as a work of genius should be chained to the floor and bullwhipped.
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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richardh
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 01:14 |
Mirror Image wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
You're right, Roger. The lyrics to "Time" are metaphoric and refer to how we "fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way", and the feeling that years get shorter as you get older until in essence one runs out of time. But then the lyrics get very specific with "The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older". So obviously Barney is not at all clear on the concept, and his argument collapses like a fat girl on a wobbly barstool.
What Barney utterly fails to understand is that DSotM is a better concept album than either WYWH or Animals. The lyrics are indeed superb, and the transitions from one song to the next are brilliant and seamless. In conceptual implementation, lyrical continuity, engineering and sound innovation DSotM is a progressive landmark, and I mean progressive in every sense of the word. |
So much truth in this post that it really made me smile and anyone who cannot at least acknowledge Dark Side of the Moon as a work of genius should be chained to the floor and bullwhipped. |
you might have to include Roger Waters as well as me then as didn't he say that he was surprised 'he got away with it'?
Edited by richardh - April 16 2014 at 01:15
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Chris S
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 01:20 |
^ just being modest I think was RW
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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richardh
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 01:29 |
Chris S wrote:
^ just being modest I think was RW |
possibly although I remember some comment about lyrics that could have been written by a sixth former.
when I was a sixth former myself (about 1978) I remember someone telling me it had been in the charts for 5 years straight and I told them to f**k off in no uncertain terms assuming they were bullsh*tting. Of course they were right. I heard it for the first time l later that year and couldn't help but think 'is that all there is?'. Time is my favorite PF track but the rest (bar perhaps Gig although its best enjoyed as a live experience imo) is for me best summed up by that expression that others use and I hate 'MEH'.
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Chris S
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 01:44 |
^ Maybe cos you only heard it 78/79 took the gloss off a bit for you I mean you might have been distracted with Platinum, China or Cyclone.
I just cannot relate to anyone not getting it sorry. Rogerthat made a good point earlier about how we were spoilt for choice with Floyd in the 70's from the album's perspective.
Edited by Chris S - April 16 2014 at 01:45
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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sankalp1989
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 02:00 |
I don think its overratted... but yeah i do agree tht its nt tr best though...
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Dean
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 02:37 |
sankalp1989 wrote:
I don think its overratted... but yeah i do agree tht its nt tr best though... |
That's it!
Problem solved - It's got Pigs, Dogs and Sheep but not enough Rats.
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What?
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M27Barney
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 05:20 |
richardh wrote:
Mirror Image wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
You're right, Roger. The lyrics to "Time" are metaphoric and refer to how we "fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way", and the feeling that years get shorter as you get older until in essence one runs out of time. But then the lyrics get very specific with "The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older". So obviously Barney is not at all clear on the concept, and his argument collapses like a fat girl on a wobbly barstool.What Barney utterly fails to understand is that DSotM is a better concept album than either WYWH or Animals. The lyrics are indeed superb, and the transitions from one song to the next are brilliant and seamless. In conceptual implementation, lyrical continuity, engineering and sound innovation DSotM is a progressive landmark, and I mean progressive in every sense of the word. |
So much truth in this post that it really made me smile and anyone who cannot at least acknowledge Dark Side of the Moon as a work of genius should be chained to the floor and bullwhipped. |
you might have to include Roger Waters as well as me then as didn't he say that he was surprised 'he got away with it'?
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So what part of the concept am I obviously too stupid to understand?
Please tell me as I can't wait to be intellectually fulfilled with the knowledge that I cannot grasp such monumental truths as set down in the Canon of Floyd!!
Also the analogy of my argument collapsing is fairly offensive and reasonably unfunny - I think you must do BETTER!!!
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 10:11 |
Dellinger wrote:
I never thought you meant to say that WYWH was a bad album, but you said that Floyd fans wouldn't consider it their favourite, as oposed to prog fans but not particularly Floyd fans. And as a Floyd fan, I can tell you that's not true, my favourite one is WYWH. However, I agree with you, I don't see such a huge gap between WYWH and Animals... as a matter of fact, I might actually have some trouble choosing my favourite of the two, and Animals has been winning in my apreciation vs WYWH. As for The Wall, I do find a notable gap in my apreciation for that album vs the other two.
As for Genesis, there I might say I'm not a hardcore fan of the band, but I certainly like SEBTP best from them (and if it were not for Epping Forest it would be a no brainer 5 star for me), and I certainly like it better than Cryme, mainly because on Cryme, the only long song I do like is Musical Box, and I find the other ones rather annoying (even though the album does have some lovely shorter songs). |
Oh, I never meant to say hardcore Floyd fans would not rate WYWH as their favourite. Just that a lot of them would also choose some other album from their discography while casual fans seem to rate either WYWH or DSOTM as their favourite.
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M27Barney
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 12:03 |
I have NEVER considered myself a hard-core Floyd fan!!! But from a symphonic prog perspective I think that WYWH & Animals (and Meddle track) are the stand out material that I have enjoyed listening to over the years when I wanted a break from Yes/Genesis/ELP/Camel....Mind you Floyd have always had a sort of acceptability (e.g. being "cool" to like) that the others just didn't have...thus the "buying prog in a plain cover" as Wakeman put it, did not apply - and I have always thought that as such I could place some Floyd as a sort of pseudo-prog! (but not the material I mentioned above) That IS MY OPINION - like it or lump it!
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 19:00 |
See, that's the problem for you. You are thinking of them in these slots and how well they fit into them. I was not introduced to Floyd as a prog rock band nor do I know that they have ever considered themselves as such. So I was more interested in the emotions in their music than the musical complexity. And in terms of emotions, none of those bands can hold a candle to Floyd, according to me. They don't nearly approach, say, the unhinged madness of Don't Leave Me Now.
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Dellinger
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 21:07 |
rogerthat wrote:
See, that's the problem for you. You are thinking of them in these slots and how well they fit into them. I was not introduced to Floyd as a prog rock band nor do I know that they have ever considered themselves as such. So I was more interested in the emotions in their music than the musical complexity. And in terms of emotions, none of those bands can hold a candle to Floyd, according to me. They don't nearly approach, say, the unhinged madness of Don't Leave Me Now. |
Though I might think that Mike Oldifield is in a very similar position to Pink Floyd too. He's not so overly complex nor virtuoso, but the melodies and atmospheres are his strong point... or at least were in the 70's.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 22:51 |
M27Barney wrote:
So what part of the concept am I obviously too stupid to understand? |
First of all, you utterly failed to grasp the simple lyrics to the song "Time". Your little foray into science missed the point:
M27Barney wrote:
Strangely, though (and you cannot prove otherwise as its a fact) clearly as earth is slowing down in it's spin! Each day is in fact slightly longer than the last! so as you get older the days are actually getting longer (not shorter). The child's perception of time is seemingly different than of an older adult! But this perception difference is very hard to quantify as it is clearly different depending on the context that the brain is using when parsing the effect of actual time against perceived time!!! |
Roger Waters rebuts your argument when he wrote :"The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, shorter of breath and one day closer death". Time and space do not change from their fundamental laws, but as anyone who has reached middle age can attest, the allusions and metaphors in the song hit home ("Run rabbit run/ Dig that hole catch the sun/ When at last the work is done/ don't sit down it's time to dig another one", etc.). It is not science that is being referred to, it is allusive to the insanity of doing the same thing every day and expecting a different outcome.
M27Barney wrote:
Please tell me as I can't wait to be intellectually fulfilled with the knowledge that I cannot grasp such monumental truths as set down in the Canon of Floyd!! |
I will try, but I don't believe you have the wherewithal to be an apt pupil. From a progressive standpoint, the overarching concept is seamless as the transitional segues and musical interludes tie the songs into a cohesive whole. As I inferred previously, the album is about madness, or rather, the things that drive people to madness. After all, the working title was at one time Dark Side of the Moon: A Piece for Assorted Lunatics. Isolation, otherness, unfulfillment, greed, conflict, war, poverty, fear of death, even the fear of flying in "On the Run" (Wright disliked flying), and even Syd Barrett's descent into madness are chronicled with deftness and extraordinary attention to detail both in composition and engineering.
There are no "monumental truths" as you spat sarcastically, but rather fundamental truths with great insight into the human condition -- Walt Whitman as opposed to John Milton. As others have agreed, there is a sophistication and sincerity in the lyrics, and DSotM is probably Floyd's best lyrical work. Gone is the breezy psychedelia of Meddle, and it is without the world-weary cynicism of WYWH or the overwrought bitterness of Animals. It struck a chord with many of us in the 70s and it continues to do so with proceeding generations. I have read posters here and reviewers elsewhere relate that there is something missing on both WYWH and Animals (I personally think Animals is one missing song from a masterpiece -- perhaps a rat or pigeon). That opinion has never been the case for DSotM.
That being said, I love both WYWH and Animals for different reasons -- and there are a few better individual songs on either album, but taken as a whole album, it is fairly easy to see that DSotM is Floyd's greatest album.
M27Barney wrote:
Also the analogy of my argument collapsing is fairly offensive and reasonably unfunny - I think you must do BETTER!!! |
This aint no payin' gig, junior. You get what you get.
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M27Barney
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 08:22 |
So, you espouse that the lyrical content of DSOTM contains such sophistry, I am incapable of understanding them! - Are you on drugs??
As interesting as Floyds lyrical content may be to some people - I don't think you'll find that anything that requires too much intelligence to interpret - you can read any amount of bath-tub philosophy into any lyrical syntax! I for one find Anderson's word games far more enjoyable than Waters output! And suggesting that the middle class English white man has more insight into the human condition than anybody of similar education and life experience is LUDICROUS!
I think that you are a Monty Python character , I can see you prancing round your house like John Cleese in the "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch!
And although you may think that the DSOTM lyric sheet is all that people need to understand human beings and their "condition" - I reckon a bit more reading is required!
and my argument stands.....the generalisations found in Water's lyrics are open to interpretation (as are all lyrics) so they are no more sublime than the following I have just made up now!
"Third Law of Thermodynamics so Harsh.
'Bloody hell, it's freezing'....but came there no reponse...."
Edited by M27Barney - April 17 2014 at 08:24
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 09:13 |
I think you're missing the point M27Barney as what (I think) they're trying to tell you is that the lyrics for DSOTM are brilliant because people who would not ordinarily listen to Prog or any other sort of esoteric art music, respond to the thematic promptings of this album on a subliminal level that vouchsafes the popularity of what has become an artifact of shared aesthetic experience. Yeah OK dumb f*cks can dig the emotion and concept on DSOTM, deal with it and embrace art that can be embraced by everyone. The corollary is an indefensible snobbery ain't it?
Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 09:15
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