The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13058

Posted: January 31 2014 at 21:39

Dean wrote:

Are we done now? Has the honour of the catholic church been restored sufficiently so we don't have to be bludgeoned to death by a sea of 'cut and pasted' hypertext? What next? The Spanish Inquisition?

ffs

Shhh, Dean -- nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Particularly in an Atheist thread. I think I'll go spam the Christian thread with equally inane pronouncements regarding my non-belief, complete with whole pages of Wikipedia-derived doctrinal hyperbole. I might even bring out...the comfy chair!

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: January 31 2014 at 22:00

Well some debate is always welcome.

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13058

Posted: January 31 2014 at 22:18

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The T wrote:

Good point. Let's remember that Nazi Germany was just the major example of a continent-wide trend of small but radical fascist movements trying all to capitalize on the disaster of WW1, the Italian Fascists, and the NSDAP's success of 1933. They all had strong anti-semitic racist ideologies. And in many cases catholic priests were not that clear in their opposition to them.

When you tyalk about catjholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

I know where you're coming from with the statement, but if the entire Catholic population except the pope supported murdering jews, then that would compromise the catholic church.

But the whole population never did that.

A little history lesson, Ivan. During the the 14th century Black Death, whole populations of Jews in cities across Germany were exterminated by Catholics (Jews were accused of poisoning wells and causing the plague), burnt alive in their homes or in specially constructed wooden structures where many were placed, often with the approval of Catholic bishops. These attacks on Jews abated eventually when the Reformation arrived and Catholics found burning Protestants more to their liking, and Protestants, equally vile in their smug piety, returned the favor.

Also, at one time or another Jews were exiled en masse from Spain, England and France (each ostensibly Catholic and Apostolic at the time). In any case, the Catholic Church's historic record on interfaith relationships has been abysmal and often deadly, way back to the Crusades in Palestine, or the Spanish Reconquista, or the Albigensian Crusade, or the People's Crusade that massacred thousands of Jews across the Rhineland, or the Hussite Crusades in Bohemia..

As far as WWII, there is enough hard data to indicate that Pope Pius XII ignored countless pleas from Jewish leaders for help, and was completely aware of death camps and the systematic destruction of the Jews by Nazis, but remained silent (using the "neutrality" excuse). Here is information from the Jewish Virtual Library:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

So please, spare the atheist thread the skewed view of a benevolent God benignly allowing genocide because...ummm...because of...why does he allow bad things to happed to innocent people? Oh yes, because of Original SIn. Or was it Free WIll? Yes, Free Will; unless of course your sect believes in Calvinistic predestination, in which case God planned it all eons ago...in his mercy.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: January 31 2014 at 23:09

I guess it will be said that the Church has apologized for past mistakes and that the pogroms of past eras are a product of the era. Partly true. But the beliefs themselves haven't changed. Or have they? Because if they did, it shows that basically everything in religion can be changed by man... Even god. And I would say that kind of proves the whole point (or lack thereof) of agnosticism and atheism.

I insist though that it's not bad to have a believer from time to time arguing in this thread. It kind of kills its purpose when all that happens is pictures of Ralph and constant reafifrmation that atheists are right.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 01 2014 at 00:12

The Dark Elf wrote:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

1.- I know history (As I said before, apart from laws, I studied Theology and History in the University), I know what happened in the 14th Century, and even when we accept it and apologized for it, this was product of the times.

Most of the Jews were killed by the Kings, not by the Church.

a) King Edward I signed an edict of deportation against the Jews in 1289 because he was deeply in debt, so all the debts in favour of the Jews were transferred to the King

b) In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain signed the Alhambra Decree to expel all the Jews,and they were not allowed to take money or gold, with which part of the conquest expenses were paid

In both cases the Church was blamed.

It's quite simple to criticize without historical perspective, it's like saying that George Washington was an immoral who supported slavery without mentioning that slavery was legal an moral on his times,

BTW: The Jews were accused of causing the plague not by the church, but by ignorant people and the kings, so would be fair to say that we should blame ignorance more than the church for the suffering of the Jews.

2.- The article about Pius XII is pure crap

a) Pius XII saved 760,000 to 800,000 jews....While others spoke, the Vatican saved more jews than anybody else, than all the religions together and even more than the allies.

b) It's very easy to attack the Vatican by those who did nothing but forget that THE VATICAN WAS IN THE CENTER OF ENEMY TERRITORY, SURROUNDED BY NAZIS AND FASCISTS, WITH NO ARMY.

“I also find it outrageous,” Krupp continued, “when the revisionists make such eloquent conclusions about what Pius XII should have or could have done. They seem to be oblivious to the reality that the Pope acted in the middle of ground zero, under a constant threat against his Church and his life. I wonder, what did the Archbishop of Canterbury do to save Jews from the safety of London?”

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/11/23/sparks-fly-at-pius-xii-debate-in-londo

Krupp is Gary Krupp American Jewish President of the Pave the Way Foundation.

c) It would had been easy to abandon neutrality...The Nazis would had invaded tyhe Vatican in minutes, place a puppet Pope and kill the thousands of jews that were in the Vatican territory

Here are some facts you seem to ignore

As Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pacelli, made some 55 protests against Nazi policies, including its "ideology of race".^[7] Pacelli also assisted Pius XI draft the 1937 Mit Brennender Sorgecritique of Nazi ideology. Written partly in response to the Nuremberg Laws, the document did not refer to Hitler or the Nazis by name, but condemned racial theories and the mistreatment of people based on race.^[10] In 1938, Cardinal Pacelli publicly restated the words of Pius XI on the incompatibility of Christianity and antisemitism: "it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites."^[1

In 1939, the newly elected Pope Pius XII appointed several prominent Jewish scholars to posts at the Vatican after they had been dismissed from Italian universities under Fascist leader Benito Mussolini's racial laws.^[26] Pius later engineered an agreement — formally approved on June 23, 1939 — with Brazilian President Getúlio Vargas to issue 3,000 visas to "non-Aryan Catholics".

However, over the next eighteen months Brazil's Conselho de Imigração e Colonização (CIC) continued to tighten the restrictions on their issuance — including requiring a baptismal certificate dated before 1933, a substantial monetary transfer to the Banco do Brasil, and approval by the Brazilian Propaganda Office in Berlin — culminating in the cancellation of the program fourteen months later, after fewer than 1,000 visas had been issued, amid suspicions of "improper conduct" (i.e. continuing to practice Judaism) among those who had received visas

The Pope gave visas to 3,000 Jews and Brazilian President cancelled the program when he discovered they were jews.

The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."^[Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. ... Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."

Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish theologian and Israeli diplomat to Milan in the 1960s, wrote in Three Popes and the Jews that Catholics were "instrumental in saving at least 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." Some historians have questioned this oft-cited^[138] number, which Lapide reached by "deducting all reasonable claims of rescue" by non-Catholics from the number of Jews he claims succeeded in escaping to the free world from Nazi-controlled areas during the Holocaust.

Source Wikipedia (I could search for the original documents, but it would be too mucjh work.

NEW YORK, FEB. 20, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Recently uncovered documents show gestures of friendship and protection that Pius XII showed to Jews before, during and after World War II.

The Pave the Way Foundation, which works to promote dialogue between religions, publicized this Thursday.

During the war, Pius XII saved 80,000 lives by persuading the Hungarian regent to prevent the deportation of the Jews. He also requested the Brazilian government to receive 3,000 "non-Aryans."

Another document provided by the foundation is an interview with Monsignor Giovanni Ferrofino, secretary of the nuncio in Haiti. The priest said 11,000 Jews were saved by Pius XII's continual requests for visas from General Trujillo, president of the Dominican Republic.

There is also evidence that the Vatican secretly issued baptismal papers to allow Jews to emigrate to many countries as "Catholics."

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/group-gives-new-proof-of-pius-xii-s-help-for-jews

And there's more, but some will protest when we defend ourselves fropm attacks.

Jusrt remember that the Yad Vashem attack against Pius XII was modified in 2012:

His defenders maintain that this neutrality prevented harsher measures against the Vatican and the Church's institutions throughout Europe, thus enabling a considerable number of secret rescue activities to take place at different levels of the Church. Moreover, they point to cases in which the Pontiff offered encouragement to activities in which Jews were rescued.

Until all relevant material is available to scholars, this topic will remain open to further inquiry.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202819.htm

In 2015 the official documents will be opened, and without doubt things will change dramatically, already there are two Jewish requests for naming Pius XII a just among the nations.

You have to update the information you got, you can start by checking http://academics.smcvt.edu/pcouture/jewish_historian_praises_pius_xi.htm

Lets end with a phrase from a Jew.

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

Albert Einstein.

Time Magazine December 23, 1940

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 01 2014 at 00:45

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: February 01 2014 at 04:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ffs

Since when the opinions bother you Dean?

I've no problem with opinion Iván, so any time you're ready to give yours I'm all ears. The wall of 'cut and pasted' hypertext I can live without.

What?

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266

Posted: February 01 2014 at 05:28

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630

Posted: February 01 2014 at 07:22

Well I totally did not expect that in this thread... Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415

Posted: February 02 2014 at 06:42

I guess you have to respect people's right to fantasy as long as it's corroborated by sufficient quotes that are just too wearyingly pedantic to even warrant being verified for authenticity. Ivan is the Spurs fanatic posting in an Arsenal appreciation thread and feigns offense at being pilloried for his allegiance, no wait let me frame that in Peruvian terms:

Ivan is the Alianza Lima fanatic posting in a Universitario appreciation thread and feigns offense at being pilloried for his allegiance

Just how many vegetarian lions do you think had successful careers in the coliseum?

Grow up son

Edited by ExittheLemming - February 02 2014 at 06:45

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13058

Posted: February 02 2014 at 08:50

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Most of the Jews were killed by the Kings, not by the Church.

a) King Edward I signed an edict of deportation against the Jews in 1289 because he was deeply in debt, so all the debts in favour of the Jews were transferred to the King

b) In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain signed the Alhambra Decree to expel all the Jews,and they were not allowed to take money or gold, with which part of the conquest expenses were paid

In both cases the Church was blamed.

Ivan, your selective historical parsing is surgical in its nature; unfortunately, you killed the patient. For instance, you blithely ignore the Spanish Inquisition's part in the Alhambra Decree, subsequent forced conversions by the Church, and the Jewish murders committed by the Inquisition. Look up Torquemada. Your University education is incomplete.

In addition, the church was by far the greatest landowner in the Middle Ages. The Church shared in the land grab that followed such deportations. They aided and abetted the kings. In France, synagogues were turned into churches. But I notice you ignored France altogether in your reply. You should perhaps research the Inquisition in France post-Albigensian Crusade when they turned their attention to Jews after exterminating the Catharists.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's quite simple to criticize without historical perspective, it's like saying that George Washington was an immoral who supported slavery without mentioning that slavery was legal an moral on his times,

Not kings, Ivan, bishops and archbishops of the Catholic Church, who joined in, tacitly approved or cravenly submitted while Jews were being burned en masse in their cities.

As far as historical perspective, I am sure George Washington would tell you (if he cared to waste his time) that you completely lack it in an effort to bolster your partisan point.

As far as the rest of your diatribe, I will edit it to one sentence:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's very easy to attack the Vatican by those who did nothing but forget that THE VATICAN WAS IN THE CENTER OF ENEMY TERRITORY, SURROUNDED BY NAZIS AND FASCISTS, WITH NO ARMY.

Great men, like Mohandis Gandhi and Martin Luther King, ignored danger, ignored imprisonment and ignored death to speak out. Pius was not a great man, but a weak-willed bureaucrat with more of an interest in maintaining his position than speaking out fearlessly and with unshakeable resolve.

Pius' self-proclaimed "neutrality" was abominable. If he were imprisoned or put to death, Mussolini's hold on Italy would be untenable. Coming from an Italian family, I can tell you that the pope is venerated and the anger of the Italian people would be such that the Nazis could not hold the peninsula for long. But Pius did not rise to meet the danger boldly as a great man of the Church, full-ready for martydom and sainthood would do. His vacillation is expressed best in his own words in 1943, when he declined to publicly denounce the Nazis after fervent requests from the Polish President-in-exile Wladylslaw Raczkiewicz and Bishop Conrad of Berlin:

"Every word We address to the competent authority on this subject, and all Our public utterances have to be carefully weighed and measured by Us in the interests of the victims themselves, lest, contrary to Our intentions, We make their situation worse and harder to bear."

He knew of the death camps. He knew of the forced deportations. He knew of the genocide. But he spent his time weighing and measuring words like a meek accountant. Even in 1943 when millions had already been slaughtered! Pius XII joins other weak men like Neville Chamberlain upon the ignominious dung heap of history.

Edited by The Dark Elf - February 02 2014 at 08:54

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 02 2014 at 09:16

The Church was one of the greatest landowners, but still they were instruments of the kings.

But that's not the point, the problem with SOME of you belligerent atheists is that you blame Church for everything, bnut when you lack of arguments, you always turn back to centuries ago.

Yes, the Church made many criminal mistakes, but we admitted them, Pope John Paul II asked pardon for them, but you keep going to the past in order to judge tyoday's Church, that's a fallacy.

The Dark Elf wrote:

Great men, like Mohandis Gandhi and Martin Luther King, ignored danger, ignored imprisonment and ignored death to speak out. Pius was not a great man, but a weak-willed bureaucrat with more of an interest in maintaining his position than speaking out fearlessly and with unshakeable resolve.

Pius saved 760,000 Jews, he spoke less than others BUT SAVED MORE JEWS THAN SCHINDLER WHO HAS A MOVIE AND RESPECT OF ALL THE WORLD.

He saved more jew lives than the allies, his methods are his problem, he did what nobody else did.

[quote=The Dark Elf]Pius' self-proclaimed "neutrality" was abominable. If he were imprisoned or put to death, Mussolini's hold on Italy would be untenable. Coming from an Italian family, I can tell you that the pope is venerated and the anger of the Italian people would be such that the Nazis could not hold the peninsula for long. But Pius did not rise to meet the danger boldly as a great man of the Church, full-ready for martydom and sainthood would do. His vacillation is expressed best in his own words in 1943, when he declined to publicly denounce the Nazis after fervent requests from the Polish President-in-exile Wladylslaw Raczkiewicz and Bishop Conrad of Berlin:[/quote]

That's a ridiculous statement.

1.- The Vatican was surrounded by military territory

2.- The Vatican had no military power, could had been invaded in 5 minutes.

3.- The Vatican had thousands of POW and Jewish hidden inside it

It would had been stupid to bark all day long, be a media hero,, abut sacrifice all those lives.

Just think in this...NEUTRALITY SAVED 760,000 TO 800,000 LIVES, DECLARING WAR TO GERMANY, WOULD HAD CAUSED THE DESTRUCTION OF THE VATICAN AND THE LOSS OF ALMOST 1'000,000 LIVES.

And the Jews recognize that, because they are not blinded with hatred

Denmark´s Chief Rabbi Marcus Melchior, a survivor of the Holocaust, who said:

"If the Pope had spoken out, Hitler would have massacred more than the 6 million Jews and perhaps ten times 10 million Catholics, if he had the power to do so."

But fanatic anti-Catholics still insist he should had abandoned the neutrality, that would had been stupid and criminal, 700,000 humans (At the least), would had ceased to exist in minutes.

The Dark Elf wrote:

He knew of the death camps. He knew of the forced deportations. He knew of the genocide. But he spent his time weighing and measuring words like a meek accountant. Even in 1943 when millions had already been slaughtered! Pius XII joins other weak men like Neville Chamberlain upon the ignominious dung heap of history.

Jews in every country invaded by Hitler were massively killed

In Italy 80% of the jews survived thanks to Pius XII, only one train left to the death camps and he managed to saved 3,000 from the 8'000 Jews requested by Hitler reducing the number to 5,000

In the rest of the war, no Italian Jews were killed thanks to the Church

As a consequence, the Nazi occupation power tried to carry out the deportation of the Italian Jews, but with no great success. At the end of 1944, 5,000 Jews had been deported to Auschwitz. Around 80% of the Italian Jews survived the war.

But yo don't see that, your hate blinds you.

If I have to chose between what you say and what the Jewish victims say..I BELIVE THE JEWISH

“The Congress of Delegates of the Italian Israelite communities, held in Rome

for the first time after the Liberation, is obliged to pay tribute to Your Holiness,

and to express the deepest sense of gratitude from all Jews, for the show of

human brotherhood by the Church during the years of persecution and when

their lives were put in danger by the Nazi-Fascist atrocities. Many times,

sacerdotes endured prison and concentration camps and even sacrificed their

lives to aid the Jews. Such proof that the sense of goodness and charity still

drives the just has served to lessen the shame of the indignities endured, the

torment of the losses millions of human beings suffered. Israel has not finished

suffering: the Jews will always remember what the Church, under orders from

the Pope, did for them in that dreadful time”.

Motion approved by the Third Congress of the Italian Israelite Communities held in March 1946

Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 02 2014 at 09:53

Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down

Forum & Site Admin Group

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team

Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20848

Posted: February 02 2014 at 09:54

The problem is that you wash away any blame with "they said they're sorry", that doesn't excuse centuries of corruption and mistreatment.

Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 02 2014 at 10:56

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The problem is that you wash away any blame with "they said they're sorry", that doesn't excuse centuries of corruption and mistreatment.

Of course it doesn't excuse.

Ignorant men centuries ago committed crimes, today we are doing as much as we can to pay for this.

1.- 760,000 lives saved at risk of being killed is an example.

But this is more evident

África

The Church maintains in this conttinent

12.496 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
33.263 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.838 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.074 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.373 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
186 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
753 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)

979 Orfanatos (Orphans houses)
1.997 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
1.590 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
2.947 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.279 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)

América

The Church maintains in this continent

15.788 Escuelas maternas  (Motherhood schools)
22.562 Escuelas primarias   (Basic Schools)
11.053 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.669 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.663 Dispensarios  (Emergency clinics)
38 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
3.839 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.463 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.715 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
4.827 Consultorios matrimoniales  (Marriage Consulting offices)
13.652 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
4.239 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)

Asia

The Church maintains in this continent

13.683 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
15.698 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.298 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.102 Hospitales (Hospitals)
3.532 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
293 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
2.095 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
3.367 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.211 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
969 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
5.379 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.870 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)

Europe

The Church maintains in this continent

23.602 Escuelas maternas  (Motherhood schools)
17.222 Escuelas primarias   (Basic Schools)
10.338 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.363 Hospitales (Hospitals)
2.947 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
3 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
8.271 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos  (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.480 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
2.524 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
5.919 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
10.576 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
2.761 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)

Australia

The Church maintains in this continent

1.695 Escuelas maternas  (Motherhood schools)
2.949 Escuelas primarias   (Basic Schools)
683 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
170 Hospitales (Hospitals)
573 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
1 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
490 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos  (Houses for old and physically impaired)
87 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
108 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
294 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
592 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)

207 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)

Anuario Estadístico de la Iglesia» actualizado al 31 de diciembre de 2007.

Catholic Church Year Book, December 31, 2007

Whoever does 1% of this may speak. (We are not mentioning universities or the cfact that more than 25% of the Aids patients in the world are treated for free by the Catholic Church

BTW: ONG'S, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses have 25 ORV even 50 times more more patrimony than the Catholic Church do less than 1% of this.

WE CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST, BUT WE CAN DO SOMETHING TO REPAY OUR DEBT WITH THE WORLD FOR THE PRESENT AND FUTURE.

Haters accuse (Not your case Nogbad) us for the Middle agesm,. but they forget what we are doing today to help humanity

Just think of this, without the Catholic Church, the health in most of the world would collapse

The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. Its involvement in the field is born o Catholic social teaching. From ancient times, Christian emphasis on practical charity gave rise to the development of systematic nursing and hospitals and the Church remains heavily engaged in the field.

Jesus Christ placed a particular emphasis on care for the sick and outcast. The Benedictine rule holds that "the care of the sick is to be placed above and before every other duty, as if indeed Christ were being directly served by waiting on them", and during the Middle Ages, monasteries were the key medical centres of Europe. In 2010, the Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Pastoral Assistance to Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of health care facilities in the world, including hospitals, clinics, orphanages, pharmacies and centres for those with leprosy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care

PS: Don't forget the universities

According to the census of the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, the total number of Catholic universities and higher education institutions around the world is 1,358. The Dominican Order is "the first order instituted by the Church with an academic mission",^[1] founding studia conventualia in every convent of the order, and studia generalia at the early European universities such as the University of Bologna and the University of Paris. The Catholic religious order with the highest number of universities around the world today is the Society of Jesus with 114

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_university

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 02 2014 at 11:05

Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down

Forum & Site Admin Group

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team

Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20848

Posted: February 02 2014 at 11:02

When you come out in favor of contraception and abortion I'll start listening to you.

Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 02 2014 at 11:06

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

When you come out in favor of contraception and abortion I'll start listening to you.

Contraception is accepted at least partially.

Abortion is murder,. it won't change (Even though I disagree in case of therapeutic abortion, rape and invcurable desease of the phoetus)

You can't force us to accept what is wrong for us, but you must accept we do more than anybody in charity, education and health

Without the Catholic Church, the education and health systems would collapse in most of the world.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 02 2014 at 11:09

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: February 02 2014 at 11:30

STOP. We don't care. Go tell the f_cking Spartans.

What?

lazland

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13627

Posted: February 02 2014 at 12:14

ExittheLemming wrote:

I guess you have to respect people's right to fantasy as long as it's corroborated by sufficient quotes that are just too wearyingly pedantic to even warrant being verified for authenticity. Ivan is the Spurs fanatic posting in an Arsenal appreciation thread and feigns offense at being pilloried for his allegiance, no wait let me frame that in Peruvian terms:

Ivan is the Alianza Lima fanatic posting in a Universitario appreciation thread and feigns offense at being pilloried for his allegiance

Just how many vegetarian lions do you think had successful careers in the coliseum?

Grow up son

Wait......he's a Spurs fan?

Now I really will have to call in the Spanish Inquisition.

Come on you Arsenal! Approve

Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13058

Posted: February 02 2014 at 12:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Church was one of the greatest landowners, but still they were instruments of the kings.

You utterly fail to understand the dynamics of the Church in the Middle Ages, the secularization/politicization of the Papacy, or the wanton murder condoned by the Papacy and its instruments (like the Inquisition) and its zeal in promoting crusades for the extermination of heretics (ie., anyone outside the Church).

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But that's not the point, the problem with SOME of you belligerent atheists is that you blame Church for everything, bnut when you lack of arguments, you always turn back to centuries ago.

I gave historical perspective to your apologist rhetoric, but If you'd like to refer to very recent events only, then we can speak of the abominable act of the Papacy literally condoning pedophilia by shielding priests who raped little boys for decade upon decade upon decade. Hundreds of little boys (and girls as well), if not thousands. Not only shielding them, but moving priests from parish to parish so they could rape more little boys. Which brings us to your next statement:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Yes, the Church made many criminal mistakes, but we admitted them, Pope John Paul II asked pardon for them, but you keep going to the past in order to judge tyoday's Church, that's a fallacy.

Saying you're sorry is cold comfort to millions of corpses, and the living who were not protected by predators in liturgical garments, the living who must bear the horror inflicted on them in the name of God, and forced to go to trial to relive their horror while the Church defended rapists.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Pius saved 760,000 Jews, he spoke less than others BUT SAVED MORE JEWS THAN SCHINDLER WHO HAS A MOVIE AND RESPECT OF ALL THE WORLD.

That number is completely unverified as far as Pius, and you know it. Schindler did what he did with limited resources, but Pius failed on an international scope. He had the power and scope to be transformative, to be a true, fearless leader like Gandhi and King, but he meekly acquiesced and maintained neutrality. He knew early on what was happening but chose to remain neutral. How many countless lives would have been saved if he stood up to Hitler and Mussolini early on? The same could be said of Neville Chamberlain.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

That's a ridiculous statement.

1.- The Vatican was surrounded by military territory

2.- The Vatican had no military power, could had been invaded in 5 minutes.

3.- The Vatican had thousands of POW and Jewish hidden inside it

It would had been stupid to bark all day long, be a media hero,, abut sacrifice all those lives.

Just think in this...NEUTRALITY SAVED 760,000 TO 800,000 LIVES, DECLARING WAR TO GERMANY, WOULD HAD CAUSED THE DESTRUCTION OF THE VATICAN AND THE LOSS OF ALMOST 1'000,000 LIVES.

How many millions of devout Catholics in Italy and Germany would have followed a bold Pope who thundered denunciations of the Nazis when it mattered? The success of the Nazis had everything to do with people acquiescing and turning a blind eye. In the words of Edmund Burke: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Neutrality saved no one. Acquiescence saved no one. Appeasement saved no one.

Then there is the La Vista Report of 1947. Are you aware of it? It documents the Vaticans complicity in aiding many high-profile Nazis in escaping the Allies, including: Ante Pavelic, fascist leader of wartime Croatia; Franz Stangel, Commander of Treblinka; Eduard Roschmann, "the Butcher of Riga"; Klaus Barbie, "the Butcher of Lyon"; SS General Walter Rauff, inventor of the mobile gas truck; Adolf Eichmann, "architect of the Holocaust".

The complicity has been confirmed and is not up for debate.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

And the Jews recognize that, because they are not blinded with hatred

But yo don't see that, your hate blinds you.

You are quick to make assumptions that I hate anybody. As an atheist, I don't believe in God, but I admire the teaching of Jesus Christ and follow many of his precepts. so too, I admire many Catholics such as Francis of Assisi, John Henry Newman and Erasmus. Unfortunately, the Church Institution rarely recognizes its saints until they are dead and then promptly forgets the inconvenient things they said.

But hey, believe what you want to believe. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just don't throw dung in my face and call it the Truth.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: February 02 2014 at 12:46

No need to silence Ivan or those with opposing views. At least for me it is somewhat of an interesting read.

But whatever good actions the Church might be doing nowadays, it doesn't make the beliefs and the whole power structure built around those beliefs any more reasonable or even benefitial in many cases. Many of its beliefs are still ridiculous in my view, the entire priest/parish/vatican/etc power structure is still there to gain adepts and, yes, make some good by instilling specific beliefs that are sometimes where counterproductive towards the good of society. I come from a country north of Ivan's. There are some awesome priests but in general the church still instills fear, defeatism, and archaic ideas injding rejection of gays and blind opposition to abortion (though I can understand these can be somewhat justified from their point of view). Part of the Catholic Church has helped keep millions docile and ready to stay poor. And there have been awesome Liberation Theology priests who have been seen kind of as outcasts in the power-friendly structure of the Church.

And don't get me started on some related associations like the Opus Dei...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 02 2014 at 14:31

The Dark Elf wrote:

You utterly fail to understand the dynamics of the Church in the Middle Ages, the secularization/politicization of the Papacy, or the wanton murder condoned by the Papacy and its instruments (like the Inquisition) and its zeal in promoting crusades for the extermination of heretics (ie., anyone outside the Church).

Lets start from the beginning, The Inquisition killed 1,500 persons in 5 centuries, not that this was good, but it’s terribly maligned.

I never condomned what the Church did then…WE CAN’T CHANGE THE PAST, BUT WE CAN CHANGE THE PRESENT AND FUTURE.

The Dark Elf wrote:

I gave historical perspective to your apologist rhetoric, but If you'd like to refer to very recent events only, then we can speak of the abominable act of the Papacy literally condoning pedophilia by shielding priests who raped little boys for decade upon decade upon decade. Hundreds of little boys (and girls as well), if not thousands. Not only shielding them, but moving priests from parish to parish so they could rape more little boys. Which brings us to your next statement:

That can’t be defended either but it’s funny that the Catholic Church is by far the institution (religious opr civil) with less cases of pedophilia.

It’s also important to notice that 96.4% of the accused priests, have been declared innocent by civil courts, but newspapers only talk about accused priests, not about innocent ones.

And if you read the papers, Pope Francis is doing a strong cleaning of any suspicious person.

The Dark Elf wrote:

Saying you're sorry is cold comfort to millions of corpses, and the living who were not protected by predators in liturgical garments, the living who must bear the horror inflicted on them in the name of God, and forced to go to trial to relive their horror while the Church defended rapists.

What can we do?

Change the past?

We can change the present and future, but people like you only speak about the past.

Why don’t you speak about the millions that the Catholic Church spends in Africa or health and education in all the world?

It’s easy to point what happened centuries ago, but close the eyes to all the good that is done.

The Dark Elf wrote:

Saying That number is completely unverified as far as Pius, and you know it. Schindler did what he did with limited resources, but Pius failed on an international scope. He had the power and scope to be transformative, to be a true, fearless leader like Gandhi and King, but he meekly acquiesced and maintained neutrality. He knew early on what was happening but chose to remain neutral. How many countless lives would have been saved if he stood up to Hitler and Mussolini early on? The same could be said of Neville Chamberlain.

We didn’t gave the number, the number was given by JEWISH PEOPLE.

Now the rest of yor post is fanatic and absurd.

1.- The Vatican had NO POWER, an unarmed state iun the middle of Rome, surrounded by Nazis and without any military power.

2.- In the instant that the Vatican resigned to neutrality, they would had been invaded, the hundred’s of thousands Jews hiding there, would had been jkilled, the POW in jail, the Pope killed and replaced by a puppet of Hitler who would had ordered the Catholics to support the Nazis.

We saved 700,000 Jews being in the middle of enemy territory thanks to our neutrality status.

The Pope standing in front of Mussolini and Hitler….Please, what you say is absurd, he would had been silenced

The Dark Elf wrote:

How many millions of devout Catholics in Italy and Germany would have followed a bold Pope who thundered denunciations of the Nazis when it mattered? The success of the Nazis had everything to do with people acquiescing and turning a blind eye. In the words of Edmund Burke: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Neutrality saved no one. Acquiescence saved no one. Appeasement saved no one..

The British planes sent millions of copies of the Pope’s Christmas Message (Praised by the New York Times) and nothing happened, people will protect their lives and to be honest, Germans obeyed Hitler not the Pope

The Western allies dropped leaflets over Germany containing a translation in German of the Popes encyclical and broadcast its contents

Without neutrality hundreds of thousands would had died.

The Dark Elf wrote:

Then there is the La Vista Report of 1947. Are you aware of it? It documents the Vaticans complicity in aiding many high-profile Nazis in escaping the Allies, including: Ante Pavelic, fascist leader of wartime Croatia; Franz Stangel, Commander of Treblinka; Eduard Roschmann, "the Butcher of Riga"; Klaus Barbie, "the Butcher of Lyon"; SS General Walter Rauff, inventor of the mobile gas truck; Adolf Eichmann, "architect of the Holocaust".

The complicity has been confirmed and is not up for debate.

The La Vista report (just a memo) doesn’t imply the Church, but individual priests.

A copy on an anonymopus operson absolutely ambiguous that I have never seen complete

Consists of a copy of a declassified memorandum written on 15 May 1947 by Vincent La Vista to Herbert J. Cummings. The memorandum describes the illegal immigration of Jews, Hungarians, displaced persons in general, and other groups into and through Italy after World War II. La Vista also reports on the alleged illegal activities of institutions and groups including the Vatican, the International Red Cross, and the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration in connection with illegal immigration.

http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn503003

As a fact the Holocaust Museum doesnn’t involve the Vatican, but independent Catholics

Topical Term Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)

Emigration and immigration.

Refugees.

Refugee camps.

Catholics.

Artists.

http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn503003

This is no evidence, this is crap and you know it.

The Dark Elf wrote:

But hey, believe what you want to believe. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just don't throw dung in my face and call it the Truth.

I never tried to convert you either, I don’t care if you are Jew, Moslem, Atheist or Pagan,

Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Grow up son

I have the right to defend my beliefs from lies, if you don't ewant to read it, there may be others who care.

BTW: I'm an Universitario FANATIC, Alianza Lima sucks Cool