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Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 02:22
Prog_Traveller wrote:
[Kindly back up your claims made on progressive ears website and on more musicians mentioning GG than Rush.]
Now your just putting words in my mouth. Then again that's not the first time you've done that. RUSH are one of my all time favorite bands. I love RUSH. Many prog fans don't consider them a prog band. Many do. I do. Some people don't consider PF prog either. Go figure. But the thing is several don't consider RUSH as part of the first wave even though they weren't around in the seventies(go figure). I think that's why they don't make a lot of big five lists. Many of the big five lists I've seen are based on personal favorites(not all). This is all my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What a concept.
I am very well aware of that. You claimed GG get more mentions than Rush which is patently not true. That fact that many people may not consider Rush prog (though I have met very few of those on PA or other forums!!) does not contradict the fact that way many more respect the talents of Lee and Peart and many guitarists also respect Lifeson.
And secondly, you did not say earlier what you have finally said now "Everyone is entitled to their opinion". You only repeatedly attempted to impose your opinions as facts. Now that you are pushed into a corner, you want to go the each his own way. It really shouldn't take that much effort for you to have to say that.
Once again, it was you who claimed GG make most of the big five lists on progressive ears and you used that to back up your argument that FACTUALLY GG are part of the big five. And when I say that a thread on progressive ears I am reading you doesn't indicate that, you turn around and say many of these lists are based on personal favourites. You make an argument and then you proceed to discredit it yourself when it doesn't suit you. This is pure rubbish. Are you remotely aware of what exactly you are talking about?
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
Posted: December 08 2013 at 02:18
No you didn't explain it. You were too busy trying to insult me and disrespect me and point out how you are right about everything and I'm wrong and not entitled to my opinion.If you did mention it it was weaved in between your condescension and insults and I didn't see it.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 02:16
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Still waiting for you to tell me why GG has six albums on here and ELP have only two.
I have already explained it. If you do not like that explanation, it is not my problem. Besides, to repeat myself, it is irrelevant since you have already dismissed the opinion of this forum on GG. You don't get to pick and choose the parts you like.
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
Posted: December 08 2013 at 02:15
[Kindly back up your claims made on progressive ears website and on more musicians mentioning GG than Rush.]
Now your just putting words in my mouth. Then again that's not the first time you've done that. RUSH are one of my all time favorite bands. I love RUSH. Many prog fans don't consider them a prog band. Many do. I do. Some people don't consider PF prog either. Go figure. But the thing is several don't consider RUSH as part of the first wave even though they weren't around in the seventies(go figure). I think that's why they don't make a lot of big five lists. Many of the big five lists I've seen are based on personal favorites(not all). This is all my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What a concept.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 08 2013 at 02:16
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:59
Kindly back up your claims made on progressive ears website and on more musicians mentioning GG than Rush. If you can, I will gladly take your point on board and re-examine my views as I'd welcome being better informed. But if you cannot, you owe an apology for passing off biased opinions as facts. You cannot just take people for a ride and then pretend as if it was all their fault.
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:59
Listen you can think what you want. It's not uncalled for. You are just going at it and continue when I've tried to end it. I'm tired of you baiting me. Send me a pm if you want to continue.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 08 2013 at 02:06
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:55
Prog_Traveller wrote:
I think these days GG have more of a cult following among prog fans(especially hardcore prog fans) even though ELP are over all way more well known(then and now). How's that? Can we call a truce now or are you going to keep trying to beat my head into the ground for the next ten years? Geez. If that's not good enough how about if we just agree to disagree?
That's totally uncalled for given your approach in this thread. You make it hard even to just disagree agreeably, being so concerned with your one point agenda.
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:51
I think these days GG have more of a cult following among prog fans(especially hardcore prog fans) even though ELP are over all way more well known(then and now). How's that? Can we call a truce now or are you going to keep trying to beat my head into the ground for the next ten years? Geez. If that's not good enough how about if we just agree to disagree? Anyway, time to turn the discussion back to the band.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 08 2013 at 01:56
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:50
Prog_Traveller wrote:
You are slamming me because I don't agree with you so you are doing the very same thing you accuse me of.
No I am slamming you because you dismiss my and other's opinions and shove yours down our throats as facts without even bothering to respond logically to our arguments and point out where exactly you disagree. If you want to start a discussion, you have to listen to what the other participants say, you have no choice in the matter. And you have to address your disagreements respectfully. And repeatedly imposing your opinion on others is not respectful even if you say it in polite words, sorry. What really is the purpose of this thread of yours if you are not interested in what we have to say and instead seek to discredit it and express your, errmm, disappointment? You simply cannot just say "You have to just accept that as fact", that is not etiquette at all. You have to back what you claim as fact with sources. I have just been reading through a thread on progressive ears on the big five and most of the participants do not include GG in their list!!!!! Please, what do you take us for, fools?
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:45
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Dude, you are being ridiculous. I never said ELP or Genesis don't command respect among prog fans but please don't suggest that GG doesn't either.
How would you explain this? GG have six albums in the top 250 on this website. ELP have two. I think that speaks volumes about the point I was trying to make(a point that apparently went over your head).
There once again you contradict yourself. You started off the thread claiming GG are as big as any other of the Big Five and it's just prog archives's supposedly younger demographic that accounts for them not being that popular here. Yet when it suits you, you cite polls or the top 250 of PA to argue your point. If you think prog archives is not kind to GG, you have to cite other sources to back your argument..you can't go straight back to the very source you are trying to discredit. I am sorry you do not see it that way but it IS logically inconsistent to say the least.
And though you never said ELP or Genesis don't command respect among prog fans, you have constantly argued they are just about popularity whereas it's GG when it comes to the respect sweepstakes. There's no basis for this line of argument at all. Sure,GG command respect among some of the musicians or prog rock fans who are introduced to them, but there's nothing that contradicts that Genesis and ELP do so among a larger fanbase. If you explored the wide world of the web (and otherwise) a little more than just progressive ears, maybe you'd find out. There are hardcore prog fans frequenting non prog websites as well and even among them, some have to be introduced to GG in the first place while most are already familiar with ELP and Genesis.
The average rating scores only reflect ELP's capacity to polarize opinions. But the number of ratings, on the other hand, reflect how well known they are even over 40 years since Tarkus. Only two albums of GG - In a Glass House and Octopus - approach the number of ratings that EVERY ELP album from the debut to BSS have got. And if you cite revisionism in favour of GG (yourc claim that GG have gained greater influence over the last 10 years or so) rather than the position as it was in the 70s, you cannot discount Genesis's position as only down to their pop hits. Firth of the fifth, straight from their prog era, is a much referenced prog guitar solo, arguably one of THE most.
Please endeavour to be objective. You have made several baseless statements over and over...here's one more, "GG are mentioned more than RUSH are despite the fact that RUSH are more popular and well known." Er, where exactly...in your favoured set of friends who endorse your GG-worship to a similar extent as you, perhaps? Neil Peart and Geddy Lee have attained the level of a standard, a reference for drums and bass guitar respectively, rightly or not. To claim musicians do not respect them as much as GG is ridiculous. Whether they should not be is a subjective question involving each one's set of biases but the reality is they command way more influence than GG has attained to date. Maybe GG's multi-instrumental capabilities works against them but people refer to Emerson/Wakeman as a standard for keyboard, Hackett/Howe/Fripp as a standard for guitar, Squire for bass etc but not GG even though all of their musicians were outstanding.
If what you seek is to correct what you perhaps perceive as historic wrongs against GG, then you really need to learn to introduce them to people in a more positive light. Your approach will only succeed in turning off more people from the band. Just tell people that GG's music is great and well worth a try. That will suffice rather than building up a case over the ignorance of kiddies and whatnot which is a counterproductive approach.
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
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Points: 1474
Posted: December 08 2013 at 01:26
Dude, you are being ridiculous. I never said ELP or Genesis don't command respect among prog fans but please don't suggest that GG doesn't either. Also, it's very funny to me that you accuse me of being condescending while you are being very condescending to me. You are slamming me because I don't agree with you so you are doing the very same thing you accuse me of.
This isn't about mass popularity(either in the 70's or now). It's about how prog fans feel about said bands today. How would you explain this? GG have six albums in the top 250 on this website. ELP have two. I think that speaks volumes about the point I was trying to make(a point that apparently went over your head). I've made my points many times over in this thread. If you want to continue a discussion please send me a pm. Otherwise I'm done with this.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 08 2013 at 01:33
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 00:30
And by the way, if you were not into prog in the 70s, you should stop talking with that faux-authoritative manner about who was or who wasn't big in prog. You don't really know any better, then, you are only reproducing second hand stuff and quite evidently cherry picking the bits you like to fit your beliefs.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: December 08 2013 at 00:21
Prog_Traveller wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
moshkito wrote:
[ in late night, also playing it!
I
don't think that any of us that loved the one and only show, were snobs, and we're the "lighthouse keepers" of that history and music in those days, and folks saying that it didn't make it or wasn't good, means that folks have no idea what it was like then! There was all kinds of music, and the acceptance for different things was VERY GOOD, unlike today, that most people have to sound the same as something else to get attention and there really are not that many different things out there, or at least they are harder to find!
I
t's like saying that half of us here are all snobs, because we have liked all this music from the 70's, and that's not the case!
My dear sir, while I very much endorse these thoughts, it is in fact one of your fellow lighthouse keepers from the 70s who is inexplicably desperate to convince people here that GG were as big as the ELPs or the Genesis-es. I am least bothered about whether they were, how many fans they have today, whether PA gives them their due, blah blah blah. All I know is I love the band dearly, else I would not have parted with a lot of my money for their studio albums and DVDs.
Dude, if you are referring to me then you are off base. One I am not "from the seventies" so to speak or at least I was not a fan of prog in the seventies. Number two, I'm not saying GG were as big as ELP in that decade. Being respected among prog fans and being popular among the masses are two different things. Members of GG themselves have said that GG were as big as Genesis until Genesis went pop so that's not something I came up with. Whether that's true or not is another story but they were in all reality probably not too far behind Genesis before PG left(and maybe a little bit afterwards). I stand behind everything I have said. However, please do not misquote me. Also, if you are going to refer to something I said then don't mince words and be brave enough to either quote me or mention me. Anyway, it's kind of silly for you to to be so negative since you admitted you are a GG fan. Let's enjoy the band together without the infighting.
I didn't quote you because it was pretty clear to one and all who had said it. It's you obviously. You have the cheek to slam the entire member base here just because they don't agree with your opinion of where GG stand. I do not see my position on GG as negative, just realistic. It is you who have sparked the quarreling in this thread with your barrage of pompous and condescending statements, so you can keep your belated 'let's not' to yourself. Members of GG can believe what they would like to and Green and Minnear have also alluded to the Shulmans' never ending lust for another pop single to follow up Simon and the Duprees' Kite so what do you have to say to that. The belief that ELP or Genesis don't command respect among prog fans or musicians is not only laughable but divorced completely from reality. A whole prog genre - neo prog - took after the Gabriel-Genesis or four man Genesis style of music. You have had precious little to show in support of your claims of 'reality'. I did not 'admit' that I am a GG fan, lol, I stated it. I stated it earlier too but you were probably too offended by what I said about GG to pay any attention to it. My reviews on this website too bear testimony to how much I love them. Kindly do some research before you come up with sweeping, over generalised premises. Er, maybe I should be grateful I did not get to listen to prog in the 70s because maybe I would have had to also put up with such supercilious and suffocating fanboy-ism. Why in the name of the God is this agenda so important to you that you would even want to antagonise members of this website? How the deuce does it matter what the world thinks or does not think about GG? Isn't their music supposed to speak for itself?
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
Posted: December 07 2013 at 22:53
rogerthat wrote:
moshkito wrote:
[ in late night, also playing it!
I
don't think that any of us that loved the one and only show, were snobs, and we're the "lighthouse keepers" of that history and music in those days, and folks saying that it didn't make it or wasn't good, means that folks have no idea what it was like then! There was all kinds of music, and the acceptance for different things was VERY GOOD, unlike today, that most people have to sound the same as something else to get attention and there really are not that many different things out there, or at least they are harder to find!
I
t's like saying that half of us here are all snobs, because we have liked all this music from the 70's, and that's not the case!
My dear sir, while I very much endorse these thoughts, it is in fact one of your fellow lighthouse keepers from the 70s who is inexplicably desperate to convince people here that GG were as big as the ELPs or the Genesis-es. I am least bothered about whether they were, how many fans they have today, whether PA gives them their due, blah blah blah. All I know is I love the band dearly, else I would not have parted with a lot of my money for their studio albums and DVDs.
Dude, if you are referring to me then you are off base. One I am not "from the seventies" so to speak or at least I was not a fan of prog in the seventies. Number two, I'm not saying GG were as big as ELP in that decade. Being respected among prog fans and being popular among the masses are two different things. Members of GG themselves have said that GG were as big as Genesis until Genesis went pop so that's not something I came up with. Whether that's true or not is another story but they were in all reality probably not too far behind Genesis before PG left(and maybe a little bit afterwards). I stand behind everything I have said. However, please do not misquote me. Also, if you are going to refer to something I said then don't mince words and be brave enough to either quote me or mention me. Anyway, it's kind of silly for you to to be so negative since you admitted you are a GG fan. Let's enjoy the band together without the infighting.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 07 2013 at 23:36
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: December 07 2013 at 18:52
moshkito wrote:
[ in late night, also playing it!
I
don't think that any of us that loved the one and only show, were snobs, and we're the "lighthouse keepers" of that history and music in those days, and folks saying that it didn't make it or wasn't good, means that folks have no idea what it was like then! There was all kinds of music, and the acceptance for different things was VERY GOOD, unlike today, that most people have to sound the same as something else to get attention and there really are not that many different things out there, or at least they are harder to find!
I
t's like saying that half of us here are all snobs, because we have liked all this music from the 70's, and that's not the case!
My dear sir, while I very much endorse these thoughts, it is in fact one of your fellow lighthouse keepers from the 70s who is inexplicably desperate to convince people here that GG were as big as the ELPs or the Genesis-es. I am least bothered about whether they were, how many fans they have today, whether PA gives them their due, blah blah blah. All I know is I love the band dearly, else I would not have parted with a lot of my money for their studio albums and DVDs.
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Prog_Traveller wrote:
