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Topic ClosedSteven Wilson begging in Facebook

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infandous View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2013 at 14:27
Originally posted by Roland113 Roland113 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


 
I appreciate Steven's work a lot, as you well know ... but I don't see the point of any of these folks complaining ... almost none of us, will ever even have a CD made and have 10 people listen to it and say something about it in Prog Archives ... and today, we've become so callous to the artistry and the work behind it, that we act like we don't care. I care tremendously ... but complaining to you, or to anyone here on the board ... is a DEAD END ... and in the end, really bad PR ... because some folks will get pee'd off for whatever reason.
 


Sorry to wade in here, but I somewhat disagree with this statement.

Pedro, I gather you're a musician and have 'lost' a good amount of music over the years.  It also seems that you're accepting of this, which is your choice.  As a musician, you have the right to pick your battles as you see fit.

When something like this is debated in this forum, there are people that are reading it and not commenting.  There have been almost four thousand 'reads' of this thread alone.  I'm certainly not saying that four thousand different people have read the thread, but I would guess more people have read it without commenting.  If by our arguments, we can convince ten people to buy their music rather than steal it, then some good has been done.

Furthermore, as one of the premier progressive rock web sites on the internet, we rely on many different walks of life to maintain that credibility.  If we condone, even implicitly, illegal downloading of music, we loose a certain amount of credibility with the artists themselves.  We, as a web community, are honored by the musicians that frequent our website.  Frankly, I'm not willing to compromise our reputation as a community by not giving the people that steal music a free pass for any reason.

I've had conversations with artists that I respect tremendously, Phideaux Xavier, John Young, Jonas Reingold, Nad Sylvan . . . Each and every time I talk with one of these artists, I'm able to hold my head up high when I talk about our website because we have a good reputation.  As I said, I'm not willing to let that reputation to be tarnished by taking any other stance other than what Dean and many other have said.

As I said, I disagree with your statement.  There may be a lot of people that will never be convinced that illegal downloading is a bad thing, but this is not a dead end conversation, this is relevant to many people that aren't commenting here.



Well said Tom.  Wilson simply asked, very politely, for people to please pay for his music (i.e. hard work, monetary investment, time investment, lively hood, etc.).  The only people who consider such a request inappropriate and/or controversial are those who feel guilt (however buried deep down it may be) about taking his hard work and not paying for it.  It's astounding to me that this even needs to be said.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2013 at 14:44
^ What I don't understand is why would anyone think of this request as inappropriate or controversial.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 07 2013 at 14:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2013 at 16:10
Music DL=Satan . And Satan is bad. Don't be like Satan. Unless you are downloading Black Metal. Then I guess it's okay.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2013 at 16:22
 
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry
/thread (but probably not)

Edited by Failcore - March 07 2013 at 16:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2013 at 19:16
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ What I don't understand is why would anyone think of this request as inappropriate or controversial.


Either guilt complex, as he said, or just feeling targeted.   There were some comments of outrage in the FB link where Wilson posted this and they all claimed to have ordered it but to have also downloaded the leak because they couldn't wait to hear it.  They thought of it as an attack on them for some reason.  It was not but as Dean said, people get offended very easily these days.   Wilson's concern is obviously that many of these downloads may not translate into album sales ever, and it is quite a legitimate one, he's not being paranoid there at all, as some of those who attacked him on FB said he was.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:34
Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

 
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry
/thread (but probably not)



Well, quite a lot of artists do it the way it's depicted in the final panel.  They aren't getting rich (or anywhere close to rich), but at least they get paid for their work this way.  The big difference is that even though the record companies screwed musicians out of most of their royalties, in some cases the musicians still did okay or very well because of the sheer numbers of sales.........which was only possible because of record company promotion and resources.  The artist selling direct to fans really is never going to achieve the kind of success that bands had in the 70's and 80's.  Of course, that probably doesn't matter to them, since for most genuine artists the money is not the primary concern.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:47
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

 
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry
/thread (but probably not)



Well, quite a lot of artists do it the way it's depicted in the final panel.  They aren't getting rich (or anywhere close to rich), but at least they get paid for their work this way.  The big difference is that even though the record companies screwed musicians out of most of their royalties, in some cases the musicians still did okay or very well because of the sheer numbers of sales.........which was only possible because of record company promotion and resources.  The artist selling direct to fans really is never going to achieve the kind of success that bands had in the 70's and 80's.  Of course, that probably doesn't matter to them, since for most genuine artists the money is not the primary concern.
Still most of those artists are largely unknown. Radiohead and NIN we're the only well-known musicians that I remember doing something like that. Now if someone like Lady Gaga or something started self-releasing, then the industry might shift. But why would she do that? The industry made her. Before she was a washed up porn star.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 11:31
Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

 
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry
/thread (but probably not)



Well, quite a lot of artists do it the way it's depicted in the final panel.  They aren't getting rich (or anywhere close to rich), but at least they get paid for their work this way.  The big difference is that even though the record companies screwed musicians out of most of their royalties, in some cases the musicians still did okay or very well because of the sheer numbers of sales.........which was only possible because of record company promotion and resources.  The artist selling direct to fans really is never going to achieve the kind of success that bands had in the 70's and 80's.  Of course, that probably doesn't matter to them, since for most genuine artists the money is not the primary concern.
Still most of those artists are largely unknown. Radiohead and NIN we're the only well-known musicians that I remember doing something like that. Now if someone like Lady Gaga or something started self-releasing, then the industry might shift. But why would she do that? The industry made her. Before she was a washed up porn star.
I don't see how this ends the thread. The cartoon is naive and specious, Napster wasn't the only villian in this (when was that? 13 years ago... an eon in internet-time), since it completely ignores the illegal downloading issue. Self-releasing, downloads sold by iTunes, subscriptions to Spotify and freebies on YouTube (has anyone here ever received a penny from YT for their vidoes?) may signal the end of major record labels (you really think? I would not underestimate them myself) but they do not negate illegal downloading or make it go away. While it is early days for these legal online sources sooner or later they will turn their attention towards illegal downloads.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 12:27
Well, I would get rid of the notion that online illegal downloads can be stopped. They're always gonna be there,no matter how many grandmas get fined millions of dollars. The point was, those middle-man distribution channels have got to go. I do think the illegal downloading would be helped if there was a direct means to access the artist and pay them more directly (and not Spotify,iTunes,etc) and receive the content immediately, without spyware. This would especially be nice in cases were albums are rare/out of print, etc. Piracy is here to stay. But it doesn't have to mean the end of music as we know it. Just like pirates on the actual seas never stopped international commerce from continuing back in the day.


Edited by Failcore - March 08 2013 at 12:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 12:37
But going back and addressing the original topic, I don't think Steven Wilson is out of line asking people to buy his stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Well, I would get rid of the notion that online illegal downloads can be stopped. They're always gonna be there,no matter how many grandmas get fined millions of dollars. The point was, those middle-man distribution channels have got to go. I do think the illegal downloading would be helped if there was a direct means to access the artist and pay them more directly (and not Spotify,iTunes,etc) and receive the content immediately, without spyware. This would especially be nice in cases were albums are rare/out of print, etc. Piracy is here to stay. But it doesn't have to mean the end of music as we know it. Just like pirates on the actual seas never stopped international commerce from continuing back in the day.
I agree that illegal downloads cannot be stopped, though the high-seas analogy is woefully inappropriate/inapplicable and more than a little missleading, international commerce would have failed pretty quickly if there were millions of pirates (ie anyone who owned a boat) rather than just a few. Illegal downloading will hurt all the legal downloading routes, that is as inevitable as leaked ablums appearing on the internet.
 
Perhaps I'm not as jaded about record labels and distrubutors as you are, but I don't see why they have to go.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2013 at 21:14
^^^^  I can't order 90% of the new stuff that's listed on PA...or I could, but it might be very expensive.  I would have to use credit card rather than netbanking or COD and pay the equivalent of the album price as shipping.   These are the economies we lose as music drifts further from the music industry.   Albums that have done good business for the industry are very easily available, whether in the remaining brick-and-mortar stores or in ecommerce portals and I don't have to pay shipping when the portal is based in my country.   And many of these albums that did good business are prog classics, like DSOTM, TAAB, Moving Pictures and so on so I don't get the disdain for the industry's role in making music available.  Yes, they may have fleeced several artists back in the day but did they really stand in the way of getting music out to the fan?  I don't think so, unless you're talking about bootlegs.   It's all very fine and dandy and idealistic to bash the industry but it's worth bearing in mind that an artist needs to survive and make a living and the industry offered/offers a means of livelihood to them, that's slowly fading away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:26
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Dave, I know what you mean....So plenty of these so-called Wilson faithful are apparently a pack of downloading freeloaders lol!

Roger! These days, I can't believe I can walk into a local chain of music stores in Melbourne called JB Hifi, and not only find a full stock of Porcupine Tree reissues, but plenty of Wilson related solo/side-project stuff. His new stuff is usually in store on the day of release...

I remember so many years ago, in their initial Delerium Records days, asking my Dad on his trip on London to go into all these obscure little music shops to get ANYTHING Porcupine Tree related!

Yeah, I'm in Melbourne too, and most JB Hi Fi outlets have a good selection of Porcupine Tree, and Wilson's solo albums. And the ones I can't get there, I buy online. So it's no problem accessing his music. 

As for the Raven, I avoided the leaks, and waited til my ordered copy arrived in the mail.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:48
Hey Kashmir! Have you noticed if the JB's only have the standard CD edition of the new Wilson, or some of the other fancier versions too? I know they usually do get those ones, but I just haven't gone into a store yet to check!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:53
I'm not sure. I haven't checked. I bought TRTRTS online. I don't think JB would have the deluxe version, or the blu ray version, just the standard one. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 01:05
I know they got the deluxe/enhanced packaging versions of `Grace' and `Insurgentes', that's why I just assumed they'd get it for `Raven'! Sigh, I'll just have to go into a store and check for myself! I did check online, and they've only got the standard one listed...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2013 at 17:43
GO BUY THE ALBUM! I have listened to it and will buy it the next time I get paid. It's wonderful. Delightful, even. Alan Parsons and Steven Wilson have delivered PROG GOLD again. I was really sketched to actually spin it because I was afraid it would be really heavy, and I don't appreciate heavy music as much as I should. But it's great. Not what I would consider "heavy" certainly moody, but at the same time very pleasant. Voyage 34 is a moody single  that is unpleasant, but still fun to listen to in case you guys need some reference point. I didn't know that it was leaked. I also did not expect ANYONE who pirates music would be interested in a Steven Wilson album, but then again, what do I know?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 07:14
According to SW in more recent interviews, The Raven has been his best selling record (I'm not sure if he is just talking about his solo stuff or if that includes PT), so at least there is a happy ending to this story
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 10:28
Well, who wouldn't be pissed for not being paid for their work?

I did get The Raven, the Blu-Ray edition. It sucks that I haven't barely played it at all even if I paid for it. The music overload I have from being a Spotify and Rdio subscriber with access to zillions of recordings has somehow made me a bit indifferent to the worth of music. It is like what is the worth of a Diamond if you are swimming in a pool of gold coins.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 23:32
Originally posted by Rottenhat Rottenhat wrote:

Well, who wouldn't be pissed for not being paid for their work?

I did get The Raven, the Blu-Ray edition. It sucks that I haven't barely played it at all even if I paid for it. The music overload I have from being a Spotify and Rdio subscriber with access to zillions of recordings has somehow made me a bit indifferent to the worth of music. It is like what is the worth of a Diamond if you are swimming in a pool of gold coins.

 


I feel this exactly. I used to buy music a lot. Maybe 2 or 3 albums a week when I was 16 and had no other expenses. Then 2 a month when I was in college. Then I was downloading a lot because hey I can afford to give back some to my favorite artists but not for stuff I'm only tangentially interested in. Then Spotify hit. I literally cannot remember the last time I bought a new record. At least 4 months ago, but even then it was probably vinyl. Dream Theater put their new album on Spotify the day of or the next day after it's release. And they make pennies for a listen from Spotify.

So even if it's one of my favorite bands and they don't put it on Spotify, I'm probably not going to buy it. I probably won't even try to download it. I just don't care enough. There's so much music out there and I have a tight budget, so if I can justify not buying a record with listening to something else, I will. Not downloading, mind you, just listening to the other free options.

Hard to say if my experience is indicative of a wider trend for my demographic. Probably with a lot of casual music fans, but I suspect diehard record collectors and prog fans might do otherwise. The trade off is just to appealing for streaming services now.
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