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timothy leary 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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 Posted: January 08 2013 at 18:58 |
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okay I found it to be narrow. Prog is not American.Perhaps you are an American who hates America, I do not have a problem with that. Eldridge i am not sure about, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt . So yes, as an American I do not care for the title of your thread.
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eldridge
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Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 17
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:00 |
 jude111 wrote:
eldridge wrote:
What is the racial makeup of your community, neighborhood? I've found that diversity creates tension and hostility. Japan is an example of a racially homogeneous country which is quite harmonious. |
I've found that racism creates tension and hostility. I'm American but have have lived in France and then China for a decade. I've been all over the world. I personally *love* Africa, and there are many great cities and villages and UNESCO World Heritage sites in Africa and Asia. People love their hometowns, their home countries, their cultures and foods. You're living in a fantasy world, imagining everyone wants to live in the USA. I am quite sure you've never been outside the USA on your own. The place I've felt least safe in the world wasn't traveling through Laos and Cambodia or Ethiopia or Turkey or Algeria - it was America. Only in America have I had guns stuck in my face. I can and have walked through Paris at 3 am, Rome, Shanghai, Hanoi, Bangkok. But I wouldn't dare do it in an American city.
Thanks for getting us way off the topic of prog. PA is one of the few sanctuaries on the Net that doesn't have the rightwing crazies, but the first zombie has broken through the barricade.
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The part about people loving their hometowns, countries, cultures and foods is absolutely true. Yet, that is an example of homogeneity, not diversity. Do whites have a right to their own hometowns, countries and cultures? No, but everybody is in the world does. I wouldn't walk through an American city either. The most dangerous cities in America are East St. Louis, Camden, NJ, Detroit, Oakland and Atlanta. Paris and Rome are European, the other three are Asian. Of course, they're safe.
Not everyone wants to live in the USA but many do. Mostly from the Third World.
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eldridge
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Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 17
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:06 |
jude111 wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
Perhaps your topic was a little inflammatory |
I don't think so. The members here posted reasonable and interesting opinions. But this Eldridge has said nothing about prog music; he only joined to promulgate his racist ideology.
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How is my view not reasonable and interesting? True, I haven't said anything about prog but I responded to the topic. I have not said anything "racist". It's just that standard orthodoxy demands that people say certain things about race. I see it differently. And I don't "hate" anyone.
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Horizons
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Joined: January 20 2011
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:08 |
jude111 wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
Perhaps your topic was a little inflammatory |
I don't think so. The members here posted reasonable and interesting opinions. But this Eldridge has said nothing about prog music; he only joined to promulgate his racist ideology.
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Irrelevent but i think i just noticed who your avatar is - David Mitchell and Robert Webb?
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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jude111
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
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Points: 1754
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:12 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:20 |
In the midst of his rambling through tangents, Pedro has done justice to the topic. In the 60s and 70s, blacks in America had a distinct music culture and one that couldn't be sold effectively to white audiences unless they crossed over. Jimi Hendrix was not the first blues guitarist by any stretch of imagination but he rocked the blues and thereby became acceptable to listeners who expected to hear a 'white' sound. For a long time, actually even today, commercial success of black musicians was reflected in the R&B charts, not the Billboard. A genius like Wonder crossed over because his music absorbed eclectic influences and, even while retaining its black identity, appealed to those outside the community. It backfired for Minnie Riperton - not R&B enough for blacks and not rock enough for whites, and such.
We cannot underestimate the impact of cultural barriers. I am not saying they should be there, just that they are more powerful in influencing opinions than we might believe them to be. If you start a conversation about Indian music with Ravi Shankar, what sort of a reaction do you think an Indian would have to it? You may even be well versed in the history of Indian music, but the frame of reference to begin with creates some negative perceptions at the other end. Because he might reflect the starting point of the Western world's engagement with Indian music but he is not where it started for us. Indian music was alive and well long before him and hopefully will be long after his sad demise too. And please don't get me wrong, it's not a knock on his legendary status. No doubt he is a virtuoso and one of the best there is; all I mean is when you start with his name, it MIGHT suggest you are simply name dropping Indian musicians and don't really appreciate it deeply (even if you actually do).
I don't want to ramble on further in that direction before some of my statements become a target for dangerous racist assaults, but it is my view that cultural barriers associated with race unconsciously influence our choices in music. For blacks to play prog, we have to accept it performed in their own terms, reflecting their culture...it would be unreasonable to expect them to merge with more 'white' sounds in order that they appeal to larger audiences. That would be a bit like how men often relate better to women singing more aggressively to violent music because that is closer to traditional 'male music' notions. Whether you like it or not, that already suggests the effect that stereotypes have had in shaping your tastes. After all, just because it doesn't sound white/black/brown or manly/womanly doesn't mean it's no good.
It is not only the musicians who need to reach out to audiences, we also have to step out beyond the 'four walls' of our comfort zone. But if we deny that such a comfort zone exists, we have already given up the endeavour. I am sorry I didn't attempt to give a list of musicians to 'refute' the OP but I believe the question was why it is so and not whether there are any Afro American musicians in prog.
Edited by rogerthat - January 08 2013 at 20:26
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Horizons
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 19:24 |
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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jude111
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
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Points: 1754
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 20:40 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
And that's why having a discussion on a topic associated with race is a dangerous idea. |
I think you're right. I looked for ways to delete this thread, I'm sorry I ever started it. It went off in directions I never wanted it to go. Sigh. :-)
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jude111
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Joined: October 20 2009
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 20:41 |
If you have some pull with the powers that be, I hope we can get Flaming Lips into PA! 
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Dellinger
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Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Points: 12732
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 22:12 |
jude111 wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
As long as you don't forget rock owes as much to country music as it does to the blues. |
I generally have an allergic reaction to country music. It's the only genre of music I can think of that I cannot stand to listen to. Having said that, I've met people the world over who love American country music, even Middle Eastern friends and Chinese friends. (It's surprising how far country music has traveled.) Also, country music is not as white as is often presumed to be - there are many black country music musicians and fans. (Ray Charles recorded country music, as has Lionel Richie.)
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It's interesting, this thing about Country Music. I happen to like it, a bit really, not a fan, but it doesn't bother me at all. However, the equivalent here in Mexico, I guess it would have to be "banda" and "ranchera", I really hate it (specially banda); of course, there is "Mariachi" too, which I don't particularly like, but have better respect to it as a music genre (though I came to dislike it more given the tradition of "serenata" here in mexico, where a boyfriend would bring the music to his girlfriend in the middle of the night to court her, completley disregarding if he wakes up the rest of the block too, which I find a extremeley distasteful and a complete lack of respect for other people). However, the thing is, I feel like Country Music might sound more distasteful for people from it's original country, just as Banda sounds distasteful to me (and I've heard, for example, that "Flamenco" is considered distasteful in Spain, while I particularly like it).
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: January 08 2013 at 23:05 |
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And if it is so white, what is the problem? Does it HAVE to be made more diverse? Time will take care of that, don't worry, it's already way advanced, and many good things have come out of it. But I don't see a problem really. Why does rap have to be so black? Should we forcibly make it whiter? (not that I love rap or anything remotely close but it's an example).
Damn, so few caucasians playing salsa!
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Neelus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2012
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Points: 346
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 02:52 |
rogerthat wrote:
That would be a bit like how men often relate better to women singing more aggressively to violent music because that is closer to traditional 'male music' notions. Whether you like it or not, that already suggests the effect that stereotypes have had in shaping your tastes.
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Jon Anderson?  
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 07:39 |
eldridge wrote:
Hercules wrote:
eldridge wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Black? White? Any other colour in between?
What does it matter?
My ancestors went for a walk about 70000 years ago and turned left when they left Africa. My friend Vijay's ancestors turned right instead. Some people's ancestors didn't feel the need to go for a walk because they liked it in Africa.
I really don't see the need to get hung up on race when we all came from the same ancestors and we're all really the same except for varying amounts of skin pigment. Maybe where we ended up affected us more from a cultural standpoint; perhaps African Americans got exposed to Country music which is possibly why they invented the blues to express their dissatisfaction and I totally understand!
I'd ask a different question - why are so few women involved in prog except as singers??? |
So we're all essentially identical twins with just a different paint job? There's absolutely no difference between an Australian Aboriginal and a Japanese?
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Not absolutely identical, but the variation is less than 0.25% of our genome. That's why all humans can interbreed successfully as we're genetically so similar. Those of us whose ancestors migrated to Northern Europe evolved slightly differently, losing our skin pigmentation (all our ancient ancestors had dark skin) so that we could synthesise vitamin D better in the relatively weak sunlight. Those who migrated to the East and settled in the Indian subcontinent kept it to protect them against UV.
Most differences between us are essentially cultural and it's cultural issues that seems to provoke racial friction in Britain. I don't get it; I don't like it. I prefer to celebrate the rich, varied culture that people from all backgrounds have brought to my country, not just the indigenous white traditions. |
Hercules, thanks for responding in a civil manner. Yes, the differences are small but they are substantial. Take dogs, for example. What is the genetic variation between say, a cocker spaniel and a German shepherd? I don't know actually but I'm sure it's slight. They're both dogs, but clearly they're different in temperament and behavior. I dont believe we all came from the same place, if that's what you're saying. The Japanese are clearly distinct from the African.
Do you really celebrate diversity though? Maybe you do. What is the racial makeup of your community, neighborhood? I've found that diversity creates tension and hostility. Japan is an example of a racially homogeneous country which is quite harmonious. |
No - it's racism that causes tension and hostility. Racial diversity can happen quite happily so long as people accept everyone as a human being and forget where they came from.
And I'm afraid some of your comments suggest that you have white supremacist views which I wholly disassociate myself from.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Pietro Otello Romano
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 22 2011
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 112
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 08:25 |
Frankly I haven't red all the post of this topic, and maybe I am writing nothing new about the topic  , but I am living in London, in a multiethnical society; several blacks are among my friends and/or aquaintances, and none of them like prog music, and by the way I dislike most of the black music too. Maybe is just the way that the two ethnic group approach music. I quote in advance that I have totally not clues to how to play an instrument at all, and so I am not fashinated by incredible skills and virtuosism. I think that the way a black compose is basically more focussed on the instruments, and on the contrary a white composer is more focussed on the composition, that have its roots in the idea, in other words, a black works in order to get a song from something he/she got playng with the instruments, while a white, must works on the idea he got on his mind in order to arrange the instruments for the song. Probably is more a feeling than even an opinion, but is just the feeling I got... 
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"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful
what we pretend to be."
Mother Night - Kurt Vonnegut
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eldridge
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 09:06 |
Hercules wrote:
eldridge wrote:
Hercules wrote:
eldridge wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Black? White? Any other colour in between?
What does it matter?
My ancestors went for a walk about 70000 years ago and turned left when they left Africa. My friend Vijay's ancestors turned right instead. Some people's ancestors didn't feel the need to go for a walk because they liked it in Africa.
I really don't see the need to get hung up on race when we all came from the same ancestors and we're all really the same except for varying amounts of skin pigment. Maybe where we ended up affected us more from a cultural standpoint; perhaps African Americans got exposed to Country music which is possibly why they invented the blues to express their dissatisfaction and I totally understand!
I'd ask a different question - why are so few women involved in prog except as singers??? |
So we're all essentially identical twins with just a different paint job? There's absolutely no difference between an Australian Aboriginal and a Japanese?
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Not absolutely identical, but the variation is less than 0.25% of our genome. That's why all humans can interbreed successfully as we're genetically so similar. Those of us whose ancestors migrated to Northern Europe evolved slightly differently, losing our skin pigmentation (all our ancient ancestors had dark skin) so that we could synthesise vitamin D better in the relatively weak sunlight. Those who migrated to the East and settled in the Indian subcontinent kept it to protect them against UV.
Most differences between us are essentially cultural and it's cultural issues that seems to provoke racial friction in Britain. I don't get it; I don't like it. I prefer to celebrate the rich, varied culture that people from all backgrounds have brought to my country, not just the indigenous white traditions. |
Hercules, thanks for responding in a civil manner. Yes, the differences are small but they are substantial. Take dogs, for example. What is the genetic variation between say, a cocker spaniel and a German shepherd? I don't know actually but I'm sure it's slight. They're both dogs, but clearly they're different in temperament and behavior. I dont believe we all came from the same place, if that's what you're saying. The Japanese are clearly distinct from the African.
Do you really celebrate diversity though? Maybe you do. What is the racial makeup of your community, neighborhood? I've found that diversity creates tension and hostility. Japan is an example of a racially homogeneous country which is quite harmonious. |
No - it's racism that causes tension and hostility. Racial diversity can happen quite happily so long as people accept everyone as a human being and forget where they came from.
And I'm afraid some of your comments suggest that you have white supremacist views which I wholly disassociate myself from. |
When most people are free to choose who they associate with, they choose people like themselves. If diversity were a source of strength, people would seek it out naturally. They don't. It is only within the past 50 years or so that diversity, all of a sudden, became a great source of strength.
The Japanese don't like diversity and have an immigration policy which reflects that. I don't here anybody seeing Japan needs to import more Sikhs, Guatamalans etc.
Israel kicked out hundreds of blacks a few months ago with nary a peep from anyone. "Israel is for the white man" said a high Israeli official. Why is it okay for Israel to do that?
A few months, Mexico kicked out a number of illegal Central Americans, saying "Mexico is for Mexicans". So the Japanese are yellow supremacists, The Israelis are Jewish supremacists and Mexicans are brown supremacists. You say I am a white supremacist. What's the difference between my views and the above examples?
It is white countries, and only white countries, which are forced to accept diversity, and ultimately the displacement of white people themselves.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:15 |
timothy leary wrote:
And to name it Anglo American prog is very narrow to begin with. |
And down right xenophobic and ethnocentric!
As I say ... the yanks and brits invented the world ... and the rest? ... no one noticed because they had no media or tv's or radio's ... !!!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Kati
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Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
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Points: 6253
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:30 |
Cooee!!!! All of you  maybe it's because African-American's are smarter and make a whole lot of money with rap/ RnB etc, meanwhile skilled musicians specifically in the prog industry can't even afford to fund their own cd's, they hold a daytime job to support their families, while often getting a lot of critique from reviewers philosophizing how the artist should play their own music and above all also having a hard time to break into this industry just to be heard because many progfans only take notice of big name bands.
Edited by Kati - January 09 2013 at 11:37
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:58 |
rogerthat wrote:
In the midst of his rambling through tangents, Pedro has done justice to the topic. In the 60s and 70s, blacks in America had a distinct music culture and one that couldn't be sold effectively to white audiences unless they crossed over. Jimi Hendrix was not the first blues guitarist by any stretch of imagination but he rocked the blues and thereby became acceptable to listeners who expected to hear a 'white' sound. For a long time, actually even today, commercial success of black musicians was reflected in the R&B charts, not the Billboard. A genius like Wonder crossed over because his music absorbed eclectic influences and, even while retaining its black identity, appealed to those outside the community. It backfired for Minnie Riperton - not R&B enough for blacks and not rock enough for whites, and such.
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And one other person had an even bigger impact on this ... and he was far more progressive in his area than most ... but we would never consider him there, for those two albums, at least!
Goes like this in my early days of seeing black artists:
Chuck Berry -- (DJ's Madison) 95% black audience
Little Richard -- (DJ's Madison) 95% black audience
Earth Wind and Fire -- Santa Monica Civic -- 90% black audience
Blue Note All Stars -- in LA -- 100% black audience
Oscar Peterson -- in LA -- 100% black audience
Charles Musselwhite -- in SF -- 90% black audience
Mississipi Charles Bevel -- in Santa Barbara -- 90% black audience
Stevie Wonder -- Santa Monica Civic -- 95% black audience (like 72 or 73)
James Brown -- Santa Barbara -- 95% black audience
Michael Jackson (Bad Tour) - LA - 50% black audience
When it came to the "mixing" and getting people together, there is one person mentioned here that is never given that credit or appreciated for some of his work. Stevie Wonder, for some reason, was not as strong in the audience department as Michael was ... but it shows you ... that even without advertising ... some of these folks went to see their artists ... but it also showed a separation that is ... still visible.
It bothers me that when I went to see YES, the audience was 99% white. And when I saw Pink Floyd in 1972, it was 95% white. And when I saw it last year ... it was 90% white ... which is an improvement from 30 years ago ... I guess.
All in all, the day that ALL MUSIC BECOMES IMPORTANT, AND NOT THE RACE OR COLOR, is the day that we will ALL OF US, be color blind.
Sadly, when you look at the world and even some religious groups wanting to go their own separatist way ... I am not feeling too positive that the integration will happen ... and that we will hear some more mixes and far out music.
Which is really sad ... because a label like ECM has so many "blacks" ... but no one in America enjoys listening to them ... it's much easier to listen to the much more traditional "Blue Note" stuff and not anything else. And "Blue Note" has not, and probably never will, release the stuff that is not "traditional" that they think will confuse the fans about the artistry involved. A lot of it was experimental, free form and played far longer than 5 minutes -- which we are not hearing ... thus, we will not have a better, and more comprehensive, sense of history of music in America.
Again, America is about 4 or 5 countries, and some of them do not have the respect of others and vice versa ... and that means that it is really hard to have one area appreciate another, unless the media can get a top ten out of it ... so everyone thinks it's good!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 12:57 |
moshkito wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
And to name it Anglo American prog is very narrow to begin with. |
And down right xenophobic and ethnocentric!
As I say ... the yanks and brits invented the world ... and the rest? ... no one noticed because they had no media or tv's or radio's ... !!!
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I did not see a single hint of xenophobia.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 09 2013 at 12:59
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:27 |
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I just wondered why it was Anglo American as opposed to Anglo in general. Americans are not the only 'Anglos" playing prog music.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Why is Anglo-American prog so white?
