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Topic ClosedTrolls scare a band from PA
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pianoman View Drop Down
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Points: 793 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:17
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:




Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The ratings-only should be subject to a seperate counting-system with its own chart and not be used to calculate the average ratings or main chart postition. This will allow the rating abusers to play at their hearts content without upsetting anyone and give a more accurate reflection of an albums popularity rather than a band or genre's unpopularity.

I don't think it's a good decision. There could be some rating abusers, but most people give honest ratings. It's like if police would arrest everybody because some criminals are around. 
We already have much more than necessary reviews of popular albums, I always say hundreds of reviews of some albums is a crazy thing. 
We'll solve one problem and get a number of poorly written reviews instead.
And let's not forget, ratings without reviews is the only way to give their opinion for people who don't feel they can write good reviews or think that their English is poor for this. Why do we need to separate these people?
Please leave the system as it is! 




Totally agree. I say that once new accounts are created, there should be something stopping them from rating albums at first. Maybe they have to write a certain amount of reviews first, or make at least 15 forum posts, etc.
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Points: 7862 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:36
^ I think some number of posts in the forum is enough to see whether the person is adequate or not. No need to make people write reviews if they can't or don't want to.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 3069 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:39
Originally posted by Life Line Project Life Line Project wrote:

We can discuss about this a long time, but I still regret M@x didn't reply and Iván wasn't taken seriously.
This is what Iván responded after we left PA: "your retirement gave me weapons to delete some of the trolls".
Trolls were removed after Iván started this thread.....
 
Max is the webmaster and owner of PA, but issues like these are normally handled by the appointed admins. Max simply can´t answer all PMs send directly to him in a timely manner. You seem disappointed by his answer/his blind acceptance of your request to delete your band, but Max isn´t the right person to contact for help with things like this. Had you contacted an admin, a discussion about the request would most likely have taken place in the admin zone and admin action might have been taken against the trolls.
 
...this is not necessarily a matter of course and most people might not know this, but it´s the admins who know what´s going on, on the site. Max has a much more superficial knowledge of what goes on in the forum and with ratings and reviews.
 
...I hope you´ll reconsider and let Ivan add your band again. Don´t let the damn trolls win...
 
...as Dean said earlier, the admins will take action if they discover blatant abuse. Sometimes it´s hard to prove that it´s abuse, but as you can see Dean is a very thorough admin, and had this been reported to the right persons, there might have been a good chance that this situation could have been solved to your satisfaction.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 15:45
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The ratings-only should be subject to a seperate counting-system with its own chart and not be used to calculate the average ratings or main chart postition. This will allow the rating abusers to play at their hearts content without upsetting anyone and give a more accurate reflection of an albums popularity rather than a band or genre's unpopularity.


I support this.  Even if the affect on the ratings is quite small, as you have already demonstrated in the past, the fact is that these constant manipulations have a damaging effect on perception of the site. 

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Points: 7862 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:02
I say it again - separating reviews and ratings will not necessarily solve the problem.

Imagine, there is some album nobody cares to review (not a rare thing at all), but a bunch of "blue meanies" gives it their 1-star ratings. And what?

While proposed feature makes the rating system more confusing and breaks (in my opinion) some fundamental PA principles.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:08
It would make it harder for the trolls.  They could still be dealt with, but would be less frequent.  And it breaks no PA principles imo.  This is a reviews site first and foremost, much more important than fly by night ratings.  
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Points: 7862 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:14
Again, why not to arrest everybody in the street? It would make it harder for the criminals to do their job. Wink
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:15
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

I say it again - separating reviews and ratings will not necessarily solve the problem.

Imagine, there is some album nobody cares to review (not a rare thing at all), but a bunch of "blue meanies" gives it their 1-star ratings. And what?

While proposed feature makes the rating system more confusing and breaks (in my opinion) some fundamental PA principles.
It won't make the problem worse and that is worth the risk IMO. If the blue meanies give an album their 1-star ratings then so what? They're doing that now and we cannot stop them. We can always delete the abusing ratings if the disparity between rating-only and review-only averages is too great.
 
I don't see what principles are being broken - expecting people to post something on the forum breaks PA principles because it mean that they have to be able to post in English and that's not only against the ethos behind having ratings-only, it is unfair on people who cannot write in English.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:17
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Again, why not to arrest everybody in the street? It would make it harder for the criminals to do their job. Wink
We should only arrest the drama queens... Tongue
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 16:18
Is this perhaps something best discussed elsewhere, or is it in PA's interest to be as transparent about the matter as possible?
I am not being sarcastic - this is a genuine question.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 17:06
Good news guys

Quote Hi Iván,
 
Because of all the developments on PA Erik decided to return. I think that is good news. Some other members of PA also adviced Erik to return.
Could you take care of it?
Erik likes to thank you again for all your help. You are a true friend.
Erik isn't able to answer you himself, because he has no internet connection at the moment.
 
All the best,
Dorinde

I'll do it ASAP
            
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Points: 7862 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 17:09
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It won't make the problem worse and that is worth the risk IMO. If the blue meanies give an album their 1-star ratings then so what? They're doing that now and we cannot stop them. We can always delete the abusing ratings if the disparity between rating-only and review-only averages is too great.

With or without separation you and other admins have to have guns always loaded. Smile
And what's the use of separation?
We have now a rating system, where ratings and reviews without ratings made by collabs and non-collabs have different weights. Is it good or bad, but we used to live with it. It's not completely democratic, but it sums up opinions. 
Why separated system will be better?

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I don't see what principles are being broken - expecting people to post something on the forum breaks PA principles because it mean that they have to be able to post in English and that's not only against the ethos behind having ratings-only, it is unfair on people who cannot write in English.
I have to agree, saying "breaking principles" was too much. You're right.




Edited by NotAProghead - November 12 2012 at 17:11
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:06
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It won't make the problem worse and that is worth the risk IMO. If the blue meanies give an album their 1-star ratings then so what? They're doing that now and we cannot stop them. We can always delete the abusing ratings if the disparity between rating-only and review-only averages is too great.

With or without separation you and other admins have to have guns always loaded. Smile.
We (what am I saying? I'm the Admin who does this year after year) I will not have to load my gun quite so often. I've said this before - I'm lazy, the less work I have to do around here the more will get done. With the two methods seperated we will be able to tell when abuse is occuring a lot sooner because the two averages will start to diverge quicker when abuse is happening.
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

And what's the use of separation?
The level of abuse that can occur in review-only chart/averages will be much less - it will be a fairer representation of the album.
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

We have now a rating system, where ratings and reviews without ratings made by collabs and non-collabs have different weights.
We could do without weightings, or at least have a more representative weighting system - at  the moment we encourage abuse of the rating-only system because we have weighting and we have weighting because abuse happens - it's Catch 21¾ + ¼.
 
With two seperate charts the weighting becomes a reward for collaborating rather than a punishment for abuse.
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Is it good or bad, but we used to live with it. It's not completely democratic, but it sums up opinions. 
But it doesn't sum up opinion at all. Why is the yearly chart is not the same as the Collabs Top Albums list? - surely if the yearly chart was a fair and democratic sumation of opinion then the two lists would be very similar, afterall most of the reviews are written by the same collabs who vote in the Collabs Top Album list. Is our opinion really so far out of whack with the opinions of the casual visitor?
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Why separated system will be better?
They won't be worse and they won't be the same, ergo they will be better. Simples. Wink


Edited by Dean - November 12 2012 at 19:07
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Life Line Project Life Line Project wrote:

I sent M@x a long mail (in French) reporting this problem on October 18, but he never sent a reply!! Last Wednesday I finally decided to leave PA and contacted M@x again.
The only response I got the next day is: "Will do right now. Done. Sorry about that.
So it took you a few tries but you finally got results and received a very thoughtful email back from M@x apologizing and immediately fixing the problem.  I'd be pleased.
David, Eric asked for his band to be removed from the PA, and that's what Max did - that's not fixing the problem.
Maybe, but his request was fulfilled with an apology.  


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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:27
I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:40
OK. Life Line Project is back.

Thanks Dean for the info.

Iván
            
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:40
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).


Second!
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 19:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván 
            
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:04
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I would abolish ratings only.

Simples(er).

I been a supporter of this radical option, but M@X wants them

So Dean's solution is the best IMO

Iván 

Indeed. And lets not forget this is the internet, people. Most of it is in English (or at least the biggest chunk of it) and it is the only lingua franca we have left. So, in order to participate on the international stuff you will need English. I've never agreed with this restriction here in PA and I do believe it's a reflex from the Quebecois origins of many of PAs founders.


Edited by CCVP - November 12 2012 at 20:07
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:07
Speaking of ratings without reviews, would Dean or some other friendly admin mind removing any ratings without reviews done by me, when you are not too busy? They are all unintentional and a product of errant mouseclicks and I find it extremely frustrating that I cannot undo them myself.
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