Political discussion thread

HackettFan wrote: thellama73 wrote: HackettFan, you are either trolling or else you have no idea what you are talking about. I suspect both.  Altogether serious. For growth you need new products, new technology, top of the line jobs, a workforce with enough skills and education, more manufacturing. The space program gets or helps get you this. Trade agreements...well just cross your fingers. It's the same idea as stimulating the economy with investment in infrastructure, as Democrats would like to do. I realize you and others may have some aversion to government investments of any sort, but I've never heard any substantive argument against it other than those in question just don't want the government to do anything, period (again, my complaint that libertarianism is less philosophy and more ideology).

There are substantive arguments against it, namely that the money has to come from somewhere, and the assumption that it will do more good spent by the government on preselected products than spent and saved by individuals has never been empirically demonstrated. The Keynesian idea of stimulus says that you can take water from one side of the pond and pour it into the other and somehow create a bigger pond.

That there are gains from trade and specialization is mathematically demonstrable, through the notion of competitive advantage. And in fact, countries that have freer trade grow more.

The Doctor wrote: Hackett.  While I think exploring space would be wicked cool, personally, and I'd love to live in an advanced age where I would have an opportunity to do it, alas I don't think it's a good idea for two reasons.  First, the most obvious question, outside of our solar system, would be how?  FTL technology does not exist, even if it is possible, which is highly debatable at best.  That would leave a trip of at least a few thousand years to the closest star.  Second, and probably as important if we were to gain the ability to travel ftl, we are still a "savage child race".  All space exploration would gain us, if we did find new worlds with new life is the ability to exploit the resources of others (assuming they are less advanced than us) and a new colonial imperialism would arise.  No thanks.  Bad enough we've done that and continue to do that to our own people.  Let's leave those others out there alone.

The Doctor!
I'm just talking about inner solar system travel, as all we can do right now. If I were President I would try to have a rotating space station built in L5 orbit around the Earth, another around the Moon, and another around Mars. I agree with you the imperialism point, but I don't actually think alien life is anywhere close enough to factor in to anything we do. That's what I actually like about using space travel as one major vehicle for growth. No Indians to exploit. My impression is that some of our trade agreements with smaller countries are currently exploitive and imperialistic.

Epignosis wrote: HackettFan wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hackett.  While I think exploring space would be wicked cool, personally, and I'd love to live in an advanced age where I would have an opportunity to do it, alas I don't think it's a good idea for two reasons.  First, the most obvious question, outside of our solar system, would be how?  FTL technology does not exist, even if it is possible, which is highly debatable at best.  That would leave a trip of at least a few thousand years to the closest star.  Second, and probably as important if we were to gain the ability to travel ftl, we are still a "savage child race".  All space exploration would gain us, if we did find new worlds with new life is the ability to exploit the resources of others (assuming they are less advanced than us) and a new colonial imperialism would arise.  No thanks.  Bad enough we've done that and continue to do that to our own people.  Let's leave those others out there alone.  The Doctor! I'm just talking about inner solar system travel, as all we can do right now. If I were President I would try to have a rotating space station built in L5 orbit around the Earth, another around the Moon, and another around Mars. I agree with you the imperialism point, but I don't actually think alien life is anywhere close enough to factor in to anything we do. That's what I actually like about using space travel as one major vehicle for growth. No Indians to exploit. My impression is that some of our trade agreements with smaller countries are currently exploitive and imperialistic. And you would fund this how exactly?

We'd just take your house and harvest your blood and sell it. 

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: HackettFan wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hackett.  While I think exploring space would be wicked cool, personally, and I'd love to live in an advanced age where I would have an opportunity to do it, alas I don't think it's a good idea for two reasons.  First, the most obvious question, outside of our solar system, would be how?  FTL technology does not exist, even if it is possible, which is highly debatable at best.  That would leave a trip of at least a few thousand years to the closest star.  Second, and probably as important if we were to gain the ability to travel ftl, we are still a "savage child race".  All space exploration would gain us, if we did find new worlds with new life is the ability to exploit the resources of others (assuming they are less advanced than us) and a new colonial imperialism would arise.  No thanks.  Bad enough we've done that and continue to do that to our own people.  Let's leave those others out there alone.  The Doctor! I'm just talking about inner solar system travel, as all we can do right now. If I were President I would try to have a rotating space station built in L5 orbit around the Earth, another around the Moon, and another around Mars. I agree with you the imperialism point, but I don't actually think alien life is anywhere close enough to factor in to anything we do. That's what I actually like about using space travel as one major vehicle for growth. No Indians to exploit. My impression is that some of our trade agreements with smaller countries are currently exploitive and imperialistic. And you would fund this how exactly? We'd just take your house and harvest your blood and sell it.  Joke's on you. I don't have a house and my blood is polluted with alcohol.

That makes it all the more valuable as far as I'm concerned.  "Get a free buzz with your transfusion."

thellama73 wrote: HackettFan wrote: thellama73 wrote: HackettFan, you are either trolling or else you have no idea what you are talking about. I suspect both.  Altogether serious. For growth you need new products, new technology, top of the line jobs, a workforce with enough skills and education, more manufacturing. The space program gets or helps get you this. Trade agreements...well just cross your fingers. It's the same idea as stimulating the economy with investment in infrastructure, as Democrats would like to do. I realize you and others may have some aversion to government investments of any sort, but I've never heard any substantive argument against it other than those in question just don't want the government to do anything, period (again, my complaint that libertarianism is less philosophy and more ideology). There are substantive arguments against it, namely that the money has to come from somewhere, and the assumption that it will do more good spent by the government on preselected products than spent and saved by individuals has never been empirically demonstrated. The Keynesian idea of stimulus says that you can take water from one side of the pond and pour it into the other and somehow create a bigger pond.That there are gains from trade and specialization is mathematically demonstrable, through the notion of competitive advantage. And in fact, countries that have freer trade grow more.

The spin-offs from the space program are numerous (from calculators to medical technology to the whole discipline of ergonomics), but they usually just happen as byproducts without being pre-selected. The following link identifies some spin-offs. It also says that for each dollar spent on NASA's budget produces ten dollars of benefit to the economy.

http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/p/nasa_budget_cost.htm

I like your metaphor about creating a bigger pond even if I come down on the other side. To me it's about pooling efforts to gain something more.

But that multiplier assumes that the same effect wouldn't happen if some taxpayer spent his money on groceries instead of having it confiscated and spent on space ships. That is the problem with the stimulus analysis. It assumes the money just comes out of nowhere and wouldn't be used otherwise, which is wrong.

Also cats may cost a tiny bit less than children.
Another reason btw why cats > humans


Oh politics?
Yeah both parties still suck, most politicians are sleeze/corrupt/puppets and I'm still voting for Gary Johnson!
It's gunna feel so nice to finally throw my vote away. Every time I say I will but cave and support (insert Democratic politician) but not this time.

All the Republicans I know are convinced that Gary Johnson is going to steal votes from Romney, but I think he is just as likely to steal votes from Obama. The marijuana legalization crowd is pretty firmly in his camp.

In any case, I hope he gets a lot of votes.


Edited by thellama73 - October 19 2012 at 21:31

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: I hear ya. Politics aside, Chester, how are you doing? Hell, are you even married?  Kids?  I don't know much about you except you live in Perryland. Doing pretty good Rob, especially now that the heat finally seems to be subsiding and ragweed season appears to be on the wane.  How are you doing?  Married?    As if a woman would put up with my **** for long.  No kids, unless cats count, in which case I have 4.  And they are like kids sort of, except they will never, ever grow up and will never leave home.    You have three, right?  How's little Chesterita? I was actually going to ask about the weather.  Used to live in Florida.  Gah.  Lizards and heat. We used to have two cats: Tunces and Hazel.  I do miss them, even though they are long gone.  Don't miss the smell of the litterbox though. Three children, yeah, but no Chesteritas.  Simon is five, homeschooled, and read me his first short story that he wrote himself.  Not much of a plot, but it does have him doing chores, saving money, and buying a toy for three dollars.  Abigail is two going on twelve and talks like no other two-year-old I have ever heard.  She goes up to her brother, "Excuse me sir!  Can you help me find this piece that I broke off?"  "Daddy, do you remember when you called us all losers?"  (I did, but there is a context, I can assure you!) Ephraim (the one I delivered here at home) is so good looking, he will need nothing else in his life.  A handkerchief for all his drool, maybe, but that's it. I reckon life is good.  Happy, healthy, and have Internet.

That's the worst thing about Texas, the 8 month long summers.  I so miss winter.  And the fact that nothing ever dies here from the cold, so allergy season is off and on all year long.  The ragweed is the worst though and that should be pretty much done until next September. 

Were you nervous delivering Ephraim yourself?  I think I would have been scared ....less.  That's cool your oldest is writing short stories already.  I don't think I wrote my first until I was around 10 or 11, although there was a short-lived comic book series that I created at the age of 8, that I'm sure was award-winning stuff. 

Ah, I remember having two cats.  We had two, Dobby and Goblin, until neighbors of ours found four feral kittens living behind their house.  They took them in for about a week and then asked us if we could watch them for a couple of days while they went out of town.  They never came back for the kittens, and then said they thought we were going to find homes for them.  So we found homes for two of them and kept two when we couldn't find homes for them.  So from now on, it's "Will you watch my cat for?" "NO!"

The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: I hear ya. Politics aside, Chester, how are you doing? Hell, are you even married?  Kids?  I don't know much about you except you live in Perryland. Doing pretty good Rob, especially now that the heat finally seems to be subsiding and ragweed season appears to be on the wane.  How are you doing?  Married?    As if a woman would put up with my **** for long.  No kids, unless cats count, in which case I have 4.  And they are like kids sort of, except they will never, ever grow up and will never leave home.    You have three, right?  How's little Chesterita? I was actually going to ask about the weather.  Used to live in Florida.  Gah.  Lizards and heat. We used to have two cats: Tunces and Hazel.  I do miss them, even though they are long gone.  Don't miss the smell of the litterbox though. Three children, yeah, but no Chesteritas.  Simon is five, homeschooled, and read me his first short story that he wrote himself.  Not much of a plot, but it does have him doing chores, saving money, and buying a toy for three dollars.  Abigail is two going on twelve and talks like no other two-year-old I have ever heard.  She goes up to her brother, "Excuse me sir!  Can you help me find this piece that I broke off?"  "Daddy, do you remember when you called us all losers?"  (I did, but there is a context, I can assure you!) Ephraim (the one I delivered here at home) is so good looking, he will need nothing else in his life.  A handkerchief for all his drool, maybe, but that's it. I reckon life is good.  Happy, healthy, and have Internet.  That's the worst thing about Texas, the 8 month long summers.  I so miss winter.  And the fact that nothing ever dies here from the cold, so allergy season is off and on all year long.  The ragweed is the worst though and that should be pretty much done until next September.  Were you nervous delivering Ephraim yourself?  I think I would have been scared ....less.  That's cool your oldest is writing short stories already.  I don't think I wrote my first until I was around 10 or 11, although there was a short-lived comic book series that I created at the age of 8, that I'm sure was award-winning stuff.  Ah, I remember having two cats.  We had two, Dobby and Goblin, until neighbors of ours found four feral kittens living behind their house.  They took them in for about a week and then asked us if we could watch them for a couple of days while they went out of town.  They never came back for the kittens, and then said they thought we were going to find homes for them.  So we found homes for two of them and kept two when we couldn't find homes for them.  So from now on, it's "Will you watch my cat for?" "NO!"

Nervous?  Only in the days before it actually happened, but once labor began, I knew what had to be done.  I checked dilation, heart rates, massaged my wife's back for two hours (hands hurt like hell).  Honestly, staying awake was the hardest part.  Labor is a long, boring process, despite what movies show.  Tasha went into labor as Jeopardy! started (7pm here) and had Ephraim at 5am on the dot.  It is one of my proudest moments (there aren't many, I'm afraid).

I do not know what Simon will do with his life.  He's mildly autistic and very particular about things.  If he is like his father, he'll dabble in many things and finish few.