The (Factually) Greatest Drummer

thellama73 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: Hey, so I went looking around for this review as this thread kind of reminded me of it - it's one of my favorite reviews I've ever read, which of course is partially due to the fact that I agree with everything the writer says.  And it's very well written (the guy writes novels, so it should be).  But he says some very interesting things that address the complaints I hear so often around here especially about how "it's not all about skill, man!"  Check this out: http://orullian.com/testpress/uncategorized/why-you-should-be-listening-to-dream-theater-writers-too/   I read the article and would like to address it in all seriousness. Apart from the writer sounding like a stuck up, arrogant snob, he  really misses the point of why people don't like Dream Theater. He claims that people who say they sound sterile are either jealous of their abilities or incapable of appreciating musicianship. That's nonsense. Most of the people here who don't like DT love other highly technical bands like King Crimson, and I think we can all appreciate Mozart. We don't dislike the fact that they are good at their instruments, we dislike the fact that there seems to be nothing else behind the raw technicality. Mozart wrote beautiful melodies and intricate counterpoint. The technique was a means to an end, not the end itself. King Crimson was wildly experimental, but also came out with some simple and touching music that stressed content over form. Fripp was smart enough to know that, although he had the chops, he didn't need to shred on Epitaph and Lady of the Dancing Water, and as was mentioned before, Bruford had the restraint to know when not to play on Trio. He claims that they are great composers because they write long songs that don't adhere to verse-chorus-verse-chorus patterns. We like lots of bands that do that, but rejection of traditional structure does not a great song make. He claims that the lyrics are brilliant, but to me the example he quoted sounds adolescent and trite (not that prog is well known for having great lyrics.) It seems to me that he is basically saying "if you don't like Dream Theater, you're not smart or sophisticated like me." and that is a stupid thing to say. Their music just doesn't connect on a personal level with many of us, and as he keeps repeating "music is personal."

I can see why you might say the review sounds snobbish - I've often thought the people around here who hate DT sound snobbish.    But as to there being nothing behind their raw technicality, I would obviously disagree with you as DT have even had songs that brought tears to my eyes.  And I'd quote a line from the review, which really strikes a chord with me as I also don't enjoy country:
"I suppose it’s like me hearing Kenny Chesney and Garth Brooks and Dwight Yoakum and Hank Williams and Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson and Charlie Pride and Conway Twitty and saying: “Yeah, they’re all the same.”"

I think a lot of the people around here who say DT have become sterile aren't really metal fans, and so they have this same problem with not being able to hear any difference from metal album to metal album.  And really, it's fine - it's all a preference.  You like King Crimson, I myself have never been able to really get into them (I've tried - they're just not "my thing", and that's ok.  I'm not going to write a scathing review or call them sterile either.)  I just wish people around here at PA would admit that this is all it is: preference.

Oh, and to the apple powerbook thing - obviously I have other reasons (some I've mentioned in this thread) that I like Mangini besides his speed.  It's just icing on the cake that I can actually say my favorite has a measurable quantity that he is currently greatest at.  But if some other drummer came along and beat his record, that wouldn't make him my next favorite. 

And to the people who argue Portnoy is greater - believe me, I've been where you are.  I was heartbroken when Portnoy left, and scared that DT would not recover.  But even then, I had this sense of hope that the event would end up being good for them, because I had felt for some time that DT was growing stale, and I had this sneaking suspicion that Portnoy didn't really want to be a Prog drummer any more.  I mean, I know for some people this is their favorite album - and I celebrate the fact that different people like DT for different reasons, I really do - but Train of Thought was my least favorite DT album, and that was Portnoy's brainchild.  So when he left, though I was heartbroken and will miss him being a part of the band always, I did have this sense of hope that Portnoy's departure might actually be good for them.  And I was actually satisfied in that aspect - I think "A Dramatic Turn of Events" is the most Progressive album they've put forth in a number of years and I consider it one of their three best albums.  But this is me - it's all just preference.  I just wish the people who write the negative reviews of that album calling it stale would admit the same - it's all just preference.

HolyMoly wrote: thellama73 wrote:   An Apple powerbook is the best drummer in the world! Why don't all bands use them? Ooh, I got one of those.

Me too! And by any objective measure (speed, precision, endurance, volume) it is far better than the drummer from Dream Theater, and indeed every human drummer. I guess that shows that objective measures aren't very meaningful when it comes to music.


Edited by thellama73 - September 21 2012 at 14:04

dtguitarfan wrote: Hey, so I went looking around for this review as this thread kind of reminded me of it - it's one of my favorite reviews I've ever read, which of course is partially due to the fact that I agree with everything the writer says.  And it's very well written (the guy writes novels, so it should be).  But he says some very interesting things that address the complaints I hear so often around here especially about how "it's not all about skill, man!"  Check this out: http://orullian.com/testpress/uncategorized/why-you-should-be-listening-to-dream-theater-writers-too/

I read the article and would like to address it in all seriousness. Apart from the writer sounding like a stuck up, arrogant snob, he  really misses the point of why people don't like Dream Theater. He claims that people who say they sound sterile are either jealous of their abilities or incapable of appreciating musicianship. That's nonsense. Most of the people here who don't like DT love other highly technical bands like King Crimson, and I think we can all appreciate Mozart.

We don't dislike the fact that they are good at their instruments, we dislike the fact that there seems to be nothing else behind the raw technicality. Mozart wrote beautiful melodies and intricate counterpoint. The technique was a means to an end, not the end itself. King Crimson was wildly experimental, but also came out with some simple and touching music that stressed content over form. Fripp was smart enough to know that, although he had the chops, he didn't need to shred on Epitaph and Lady of the Dancing Water, and as was mentioned before, Bruford had the restraint to know when not to play on Trio.

He claims that they are great composers because they write long songs that don't adhere to verse-chorus-verse-chorus patterns. We like lots of bands that do that, but rejection of traditional structure does not a great song make.

He claims that the lyrics are brilliant, but to me the example he quoted sounds adolescent and trite (not that prog is well known for having great lyrics.)

It seems to me that he is basically saying "if you don't like Dream Theater, you're not smart or sophisticated like me." and that is a stupid thing to say. Their music just doesn't connect on a personal level with many of us, and as he keeps repeating "music is personal."

tamijo wrote: Snow Dog wrote: tamijo wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: So I found out (surprised I hadn't heard of this until now) why people around here have all the DT hate - it's jealousy, man!    You just can't stand that they have THE (FACTUALLY) Greatest Drummer alive!   (Queue the "well so and so is more 'tasteful'" comment bs, heh heh)   Why dont you just post : Hey listen to this its great !! A lot more possivive than : So I found out why people around here have all the DT hate - it's jealousy, man!   Dont know about others, but not the way to get me interested. I dont Hate DT. Its just not my favorite genre in Prog.      DT isn't a genre.......yet You know what I was saying, you are just bored.

dtguitarfan wrote: Nah, music should be in 4/4 all the time and never do anything interesting or unusual....

I think you said that exact same thing in another thread already. Dude, you gotta be more creative with your rebuttals!

I've never been interested in all these ultra-technical world record stuff, but Mike is a cool drummer nonetheless. I'm interested to see what he will bring to the table on the next DT album. Also, gotta love his excitement when he sees the cymbal wobbling around.

Snow Dog wrote: tamijo wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: So I found out (surprised I hadn't heard of this until now) why people around here have all the DT hate - it's jealousy, man!    You just can't stand that they have THE (FACTUALLY) Greatest Drummer alive!   (Queue the "well so and so is more 'tasteful'" comment bs, heh heh) Current record: Former record: And an awesome breakdown:   Why dont you just post : Hey listen to this its great !! A lot more possivive than : So I found out why people around here have all the DT hate - it's jealousy, man!   Dont know about others, but not the way to get me interested. I dont Hate DT. Its just not my favorite genre in Prog.      DT isn't a genre.......yet

You guys are gonna be arguing about sweet nothing's till your blue in the face. Faster doesn't necessarily mean better. Same goes with sex!! Lol. 😝

Yeah Bro

The T wrote: DUDE, all you have said still doesn't "factually" prove Mangini is the greatest drummer of anything.

Haha, chill out!  Mangini is actually my current favorite, and I am thrilled to have found out that he holds the record in the only quantifiable measurement of drumming (well, besides loudest).  But honestly, you've got to watch the Time Warp video.  Time Warp is a Discovery channel show where they use super fast cameras to film things so that they can slow it way down and break down everything that is going on.

The T wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: he's actually more than just the fastest drummer in the world How the hell did we get to measure that?  Did ya watch the videos at the beginning of the thread?  I do recommend watching them, especially the Time Warp one, that is just really, really cool stuff, whether you like Dream Theater or Mangini or not. Oh well I certainly haven't. I used to have a reputation here as a DT fanboy so you can expect me not to dislike the band. But from "fastest" to "best" there is a long distance. Besides that, I'm sure the number of drummers that have been measured is not equal to all the drummers in the world.

DUDE, watch the Time Warp video, it's really, really cool.

And the argument you used is kind of like invalidating Olympic records because we haven't measured all the runners/swimmers/javelin throwers/whatever in the world.  Just sayin'.