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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 07:13
^^^^ I also remember Wetton saying prog rock back in the 70s originated often from a drummer expounding on a theme.  He didn't use the word jam but the intent is the same.  Improvising to crystallize ideas is a favoured method used by so many musicians.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 07:42
Robbie Kreiger used a strange and different distortion sound from other guitarists in the 60's. His sound reminding me of Fripp on Poseidon and Lizard. He also (at times), played the tri=tone or Devil's interval during jams. Compare it yourself if you don't believe me. Play one of Fripp's improvised leads on a live recording of the "Sailor's Tale" and then bend an ear to the solo Kreiger does on the studio version of "When the Music Over". I also thought the chord progression and atmosphere created in "L' America" was very European early 70's prog. Atomic Rooster, Lucifer's Friend, Omega type mode. It's simply a haunting song and quite different somehow for the Doors. Of course the American Psychedelic bands were etiher influential on European "Space Rock" or influenced by it themselves. Sections of Jefferson Airplane's Crown Of Creation taking us to the planet Gong or Saucerful of Secrets. Jimi Hendrix a year or so prior to his death, hanging out with Hawkwind at the Isle Of Wight or jamming with progger Bo Hansson. Bo Hansson writng "Tax Free" for Hendrix. Hendrix watching a performance of King Crimson at the Marquee. It is not all loosely tied ..but directly tied in as a connection. Psychedelic musician writers were interested in the development of European prog because some of them had actually created aspects to it in 68'.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 08:28
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Robbie Kreiger used a strange and different distortion sound from other guitarists in the 60's.
Almost every book about the Doors tells that Robby studied flamenco and then used this approach for playing electric guitar.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 15:14
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Robbie Kreiger used a strange and different distortion sound from other guitarists in the 60's.
Almost every book about the Doors tells that Robby studied flamenco and then used this approach for playing electric guitar.
 
 
This could mean for example the intro to "Love Me Two Times" is possibly played with the fingernails of his right hand? and to be honest...I don't personally know if he played electric guitar finger style in all cases, but my reference is mainly of him using the same tri-tones as Fripp and the same distortion ..sustaining effect on various leads. He used a distortion which was either through the amp itself or what was known then as the "Big Muff" or maybe even a better pedal. He plays a haunting electric guitar lead with a hall or reverb effect on most albums. Usually a song that rocks out and has a dark sound. Definitely not the sound he used on songs like "People Are Strange" and "You're Lost Little Girl" where obviously the guitar is being played with a clean tone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 15:26
I don't have my history exact..but I do recall something about Jim Morrison turning up to the studio and the band members along with production people were raving about the music of the Doors being placed in a T.V. commercial for cars or something of that nature. Jim Morrison thought it was a disgrace to the image and identity of the Doors....which was his reaction immediately. For years...classic rock songs from the 60's have been used for T.V. commercials. Obviously a vast amount of people who know nothing about the 60's identify a 60's song with a T.V. commercial and buy the cd or download it. This is exactly the method of business that Jim Morrison was against and became angered over it. People often use a 60's song to attract more attention to the product they are selling. In point...I must agree with Morrison and say that it is a disgrace to music that was once taken seriously.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 18:02
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

This could mean for example the intro to "Love Me Two Times" is possibly played with the fingernails of his right hand? and to be honest...I don't personally know if he played electric guitar finger style in all cases, but my reference is mainly of him using the same tri-tones as Fripp and the same distortion ..sustaining effect on various leads. He used a distortion which was either through the amp itself or what was known then as the "Big Muff" or maybe even a better pedal. He plays a haunting electric guitar lead with a hall or reverb effect on most albums. Usually a song that rocks out and has a dark sound. Definitely not the sound he used on songs like "People Are Strange" and "You're Lost Little Girl" where obviously the guitar is being played with a clean tone.
From what I've read I know that in the Doors glory days Robby always played with the fingernails of his right hand. In later interviews (if memory serves me it was on "Classic Albums: The Doors" DVD: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=35826) he said that later he learned to play with a plectrum as well and now he uses plectrum even more often than fingernails.

I attended MANZAREK-KRIEGER OF THE DOORS concert in June and tried to look how Robby plays. Set list consisted of the Doors' classics, only short instrumental "Russian Caravan" was taken from Robby's solo album "Singularity". He played with fingernails most of the time, using plectrum from time to time.

I don't know whether the Doors in the late 60s were familiar with Fripp's music. If they were it was never mentioned in the books I've read about the Doors (memoirs of Densmore, Manzarek and others). Probably Krieger and Fripp came to the same idea independently.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 21:33
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

This could mean for example the intro to "Love Me Two Times" is possibly played with the fingernails of his right hand? and to be honest...I don't personally know if he played electric guitar finger style in all cases, but my reference is mainly of him using the same tri-tones as Fripp and the same distortion ..sustaining effect on various leads. He used a distortion which was either through the amp itself or what was known then as the "Big Muff" or maybe even a better pedal. He plays a haunting electric guitar lead with a hall or reverb effect on most albums. Usually a song that rocks out and has a dark sound. Definitely not the sound he used on songs like "People Are Strange" and "You're Lost Little Girl" where obviously the guitar is being played with a clean tone.
From what I've read I know that in the Doors glory days Robby always played with the fingernails of his right hand. In later interviews (if memory serves me it was on "Classic Albums: The Doors" DVD: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=35826) he said that later he learned to play with a plectrum as well and now he uses plectrum even more often than fingernails.

I attended MANZAREK-KRIEGER OF THE DOORS concert in June and tried to look how Robby plays. Set list consisted of the Doors' classics, only short instrumental "Russian Caravan" was taken from Robby's solo album "Singularity". He played with fingernails most of the time, using plectrum from time to time.

I don't know whether the Doors in the late 60s were familiar with Fripp's music. If they were it was never mentioned in the books I've read about the Doors (memoirs of Densmore, Manzarek and others). Probably Krieger and Fripp came to the same idea independently.   
 
I agree. Thanks for confirming Krieger's picking styles. Fripp used distortion on one track only from "The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles, and Fripp" in 1968..and I doubt if many American artists heard the album. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I feel I must doubt it because of it's obscure nature as opposed to being an English Pop record. It was the last track from the record where Fripp played for the first time..a sustaining dark type of solo which had that Krieger sound used on "When the Music's Over". As you said they came to the same idea independently. It seems too far-fetched to consider otherwise in the silly event of who got there first. Although I have been amazed by the expression of 60's music which sometimes filters through early 70's prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 22:51
This is the best part of the trip...the trip...the best part...I really like.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2012 at 23:43
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

I don't have my history exact..but I do recall something about Jim Morrison turning up to the studio and the band members along with production people were raving about the music of the Doors being placed in a T.V. commercial for cars or something of that nature. Jim Morrison thought it was a disgrace to the image and identity of the Doors....which was his reaction immediately. For years...classic rock songs from the 60's have been used for T.V. commercials. Obviously a vast amount of people who know nothing about the 60's identify a 60's song with a T.V. commercial and buy the cd or download it. This is exactly the method of business that Jim Morrison was against and became angered over it. People often use a 60's song to attract more attention to the product they are selling. In point...I must agree with Morrison and say that it is a disgrace to music that was once taken seriously.


Ironically, it was this method that got me to purchase Between the Buttons by the Rolling Stones and Pink Moon by Nick Drake, as well as put The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society by the Kinks on my wishlist. Kind of sad that it's the only way people can know about this kind of music these days.

Back on topic, I like "The Soft Parade", but I think the TV performance of the piece was a tad more energetic that the version that made it on the studio version. As for the album itself, it's probably the weakest in the band's catalog, but it's not the disaster many make it out to be, thanks to the title track, "Tell All The People", "Touch Me", "Easy Ride",  "Wild Child" and "Wishful Sinful"


Edited by KingCrInuYasha - August 19 2012 at 23:44
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2012 at 14:48
Jim Morrison's attitudes were definitely not working and playing well with society in the 60's. He complained about audiences showing up to a Doors concert just to hear "Light My Fire" and "Touch Me". He would scream in to the microphone..."What the F are you doing here?"  "Why are you here?" "Did you come to see the Doors to hear Light My Fire?" lol!  I loved that energy he displayed. I never looked upon him as being a hippie. He just didn't fit the part as far as I was concerned...although others may disagree. When I think about the difference between him and other lead vocalists in the 60's ..I often arrive to that conclusion. He was always surrounded by cops. The police didn't seem to understand half of what he had to say. I don't believe for a minute they knew where he was coming from. They would grab him and escort him off the stage and even handcuff him at times. It was very overblown and they had very stupied hands. He was ahead of his time regarding the way he controlled a rock audience. He was the ultimate frontman in rock. He would dance like a Native American across the stage , loosely swinging the mic...and some have made the observation that this dance was the first signs of the "Punk Rock" mentality. It's interesting to observe that because Morrison had ties with the "Velvet Underground" who really came across like Punk. I still love his lyrics and his vocal style. My favorite song is "Moonlight Drive". The very start of the song is simplistic in nature , but has this haunting affect on me. That keyboard has a strange sound that isn't identified with anything else. The slide guitar is very haunting. The choice of notes and phrasing are not fitting to typical sounds found in 60's music. They were obviously influenced by funk, Latin, and Classical..but embraced it with uniqueness that I could never identify. Sort of the way that Syd Barrett created some of the strangest songs like "See Emily Play" where his influences were hidden just enough to throw off the listener. They were crafty. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2012 at 14:38
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 They were obviously influenced by funk, Latin, and Classical..but embraced it with uniqueness that I could never identify.
And don't forget jazz. Ray Manzarek recalled that when he first met John Densmore they told each other that they love jazz, but both are not good enough to be proper jazz keyboardist and drummer (respectively) Smile. But they felt that it's possible to incorporate elements of any kind of music into rock and make something original. We all know they succeeded.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2012 at 09:01
The Soft Parade is too artificially structured to be natural, but has some fine moments nevertheless, particularly the bluesy phase. A lot of the other more melodic stuff is downright corny and pretentious. It is at least trying to be experimental, but it could have done with a lot of serious editing and hard self-criticism before its release.

When the Music's Over has some weak lyrics, and limited melody, but it is pure drama, just about the finest rock-drama ever produced in pop music's history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2012 at 17:14
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

...
..but directly tied in as a connection. Psychedelic musician writers were interested in the development of European prog because some of them had actually created aspects to it in 68'.
 
The funny thing is that the European musicians will tell you that they wanted to come to America to do the American thing, and many American musicians were looking to Europe for something ... and in the case of many jazz musicians in the 50's they left America ... and when you see the Tom Dowd DVD, you will know why!
 
But there are many parallels between ... let's say ... the UFO club, and the Fillmore ... they are almost identical ... with one exception. London had a better appreciation for the arts, in ANY form, than America ever did! America media has been killing the arts for 60 years ... and it's hard for folks, even here, to see things like "Citizen Kane" ... and not realize that when you look at USA TODAY it is only giving you words on things it has an investment in! Or a program that they have money and interest in! And you fail to recognize that the "freedoms" are not there anymore ... since you end up thinking that a top ten, or an American Idol, or some Nashville this and that, are the only things that are happening in America ... when in essence, this is like 5 or 6 countries ... and NY doesn't do Nashville. NY does NY! SF doesn't do NY. SF does SF! and the arts/music scenes are all like that here ... and were like that then.
 
Sadly, and Dean is a proponent of this, a lot of that stuff is dead and gone, and yes, it is. But I only disagree in that there were not enough people that were more educated than a cat or a dog to give a damn about their time and place in life ... it's like it was meaningless ... and to me, folks like The Doors are a serious vindication of the sheer beauty and poetry of that time and place ... that so few people appreciated then, and even fewer appreciate it now.
 
Funny ... the main theme of "The Soft Parade" is just about all that !!! ... and now, ladies and gentleman, here comes the best part of the trip! All politics and ideas aside ... there is something left ... the music! I'm not sure that some folks ever realized how with it some of this stuff really was, and for me, some folks thinking it is just a song and nothing else, demeans the value of the work.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2012 at 17:18
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

The Soft Parade is too artificially structured to be natural, but has some fine moments nevertheless, particularly the bluesy phase. A lot of the other more melodic stuff is downright corny and pretentious. It is at least trying to be experimental, but it could have done with a lot of serious editing and hard self-criticism before its release.

When the Music's Over has some weak lyrics, and limited melody, but it is pure drama, just about the finest rock-drama ever produced in pop music's history.
 
In general, the majority of Jim Morrison's work is very visual and is film minded. Don't forget that you are talking about film students at UCLA, and you do not get into that school if you were not good, or talked a better game. When the Music is Over is not about the lyrics ... never was ... it's about a sound, an inner sound ... that some folks will never hear in their lives! A dream is not close enough. A vision is an idea by comparison!
 
When you "know", and you "see" ... so few people can not feel it or understand it, and prefer to say that it is wrong, and either the lyrics or this or that is not good enough. Heck .. they said the same thing about Jesus of Nazareth, so why are we surprised at comments like that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 01:41
The Doors are cool, seriously.
I love most of their albums, the title 'Soft Parade' track is up there amongst the best.  Truthfully, i love the 2 'post-Morrison' albums more than anything.  For me, it should've been 'Ray Manzarek and The Doors'.............
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:56
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Truthfully, i love the 2 'post-Morrison' albums more than anything.
Are you kidding?
 
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

For me, it should've been 'Ray Manzarek and The Doors'.............
Why not 'Doroti Fujikawa and the Doors'? Smile 
Read Ray's memoirs, the Doors would never happen without her approval and support in the very beginning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 16:47
Soft Parade is great once it comes into the 'hard' part; but the earliest part of the song devalues it, rubbish really. Still think the track is worth it for the main body of the song.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 17:17
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

[QUOTE=Tom Ozric]For me, it should've been 'Ray Manzarek and The Doors'.............
Why not 'Doroti Fujikawa and the Doors'? Smile 
Read Ray's memoirs, the Doors would never happen without her approval and support in the very beginning.
Other Voices - what an album........
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