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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 16:08
Now comes the holocaust denial accusation...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 16:19
Funny thing is people should start paying attention to some of Mitt Romney's decisions as the head of Bain Capital. Taxpayer funded bailouts... mhmmm....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:14
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Did anyone know that Santorum thinks that contraception should be able to be banned? Wowza


Would you allow for individual states to pass such measures?

Not directed at me, but I think the availability of contraceptives is a human rights issue. States should not be able to pick and choose human rights issues, which is why I support legalization of same-sex marriage on a federal level. It may be an extreme side of the issue, but the States do not have a right to pick and choose to own slaves. It is fundamentally wrong. Just as is not making contraceptives available when they can be available.


I think there's a difference between what States should be able to do and how the federal government should interact with the States. I do not believe that any State should be able to ban contraceptives, but if our form of government is to actually work (I do not believe it can) I do not think the federal government can override a State that does so. This should be up to the people of the State to change.

Sounds fair, but I don't think the states right argument is particularly compelling enough to overcome huge gaps in the law around the country, especially regarding definitely moral or human rights issues. In other words, I don't see what is inherent in Statehood that makes it more compelling than the Federal law. I assume state law supersedes county and city law, at least in jurisdictions where they would overlap significantly (not counting transportation or other not morally or culturally relevant areas). I can understand the federal government declining to overrule state laws not of a human rights nature, in order to preserve the uniqueness and (to what degree can be said) soveriegnty of a state. But are there no issues in which the federal government should not intervene? (Once again excepting interstate commerce regulation or something else like that). I mean we can go down the list of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and just start supposing states allowed them to be infringed...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:29
Stonie....off topic just briefly.....I checked out your music the other night....not bad at all man, in fact pretty cool
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:32
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Stonie....off topic just briefly.....I checked out your music the other night....not bad at all man, in fact pretty cool

Thumbs Up

Haha thanks. I'm working on a few new things now. A couple dream pop, a couple prog electronic, and maybe a Sting cover. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:33
are you in a band?  or just playing all yourself?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:36
Also didn't Romney support the healthcare system for his state that "obamacare" was based on?
"Obamney care" someone called it, until he wussed out and went back on the one interesting thing he ever saidLOL

It's funny how desperate the party has become. He's always been so mistrusted amongst GOPers for being moderately liberal then lolnvm Im conservative now. Especially about the abortion issue. Guess now they are willing to accept it that the alternatives are scary and they will probably still lose to bama


Edited by JJLehto - January 07 2012 at 18:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 18:40
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

A) There's a strong chance the ad was made by Huntsman supporters trying desperately to help their candidate.


Your insanity never ceases to amaze me.


Much as it may pain me, have to agree with MoM on this one...what's so hard to believe about that?
Both parties do it. I've seen some Dem on Dem attack ads that were just vicious! It happens all the time, everyone wants their time in the palace and if it means smearing sh*t all over a fellow party member they will gladly do so.

Edit: Ah and the infamous Hillary v. Bama ad where the commercial more or less implied look obama is black your children and families are not safe!   Politics is dirty dirty stuffCry

Not saying Huntman did it, it could've been another candidate, or as Pat said fringe Paul supporters, or even a Democratic ploy.
And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, that sh*t is very possible and happens!


Edited by JJLehto - January 07 2012 at 18:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 23:32
I never said Huntsman did it either.  Just think it's highly likely some supporters of his did.  I mean, what sense would it make for a Paul supporter to make something that would get him bad press and give Huntsman nothing but positive press?  Huntsman is trying to fight Paul for second and has put all his eggs in the NH basket so why give him anything he could use?
 
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Also didn't Romney support the healthcare system for his state that "obamacare" was based on?
"Obamney care" someone called it, until he wussed out and went back on the one interesting thing he ever saidLOL

It's funny how desperate the party has become. He's always been so mistrusted amongst GOPers for being moderately liberal then lolnvm Im conservative now. Especially about the abortion issue. Guess now they are willing to accept it that the alternatives are scary and they will probably still lose to bama
 
 
McCain (not sure how his endorsement can be seen as a positive, btw) certainly can't tell the difference LOL:
It's alright John, I can't tell them apart either.


Edited by manofmystery - January 07 2012 at 23:37


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2012 at 23:55
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but it reflects badly on his supporters, who I'd never thought of as paranoid xenophobes living in the 1950s




You mean if reflects badly on the handful of supporters who made the ad. I don't see how it reflects poorly on a supporter like me for example.

Yeah, guilt by association is wrong, but you should have second thoughts about who you are attracting...


Not really. Why should it matter? Every candidate attracts his fair share of morons. Every type of bigot, racist, etc. votes so they're all going to have a candidate they support. It has never made sense to me to associate a candidate with extreme factions of his supporters. Or to associate a religion with extreme fanatical sects in that religion.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2012 at 13:47
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

 

Sounds fair, but I don't think the states right argument is particularly compelling enough to overcome huge gaps in the law around the country, especially regarding definitely moral or human rights issues. In other words, I don't see what is inherent in Statehood that makes it more compelling than the Federal law. I assume state law supersedes county and city law, at least in jurisdictions where they would overlap significantly (not counting transportation or other not morally or culturally relevant areas). I can understand the federal government declining to overrule state laws not of a human rights nature, in order to preserve the uniqueness and (to what degree can be said) soveriegnty of a state. But are there no issues in which the federal government should not intervene? (Once again excepting interstate commerce regulation or something else like that). I mean we can go down the list of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and just start supposing states allowed them to be infringed...


Well the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is kind of junk and idiotic in my opinion. There's many non-rights on there, things that are really anti-rights.

It has to do with a matter of controlling the government though. I do not mean in the sense that we want to have heterogeneous states in the union. It's simply easier to control a State than it is to control the entire federal government. It's easier to be responsive to what a city does, than to what the entire State does, and so on down to your local government. I'm just talking about keeping things decentralized so that we have the ability to control the government and that the government is not powerful enough to become draconian when enforcing its laws.

EDIT: Ron Paul brought up the interstate commerce clause in the last debate to talk of why it would be unconstitutional for States to do the ban. It was a route I had not thought about.



Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 08 2012 at 13:57
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2012 at 13:18
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



EDIT: Ron Paul brought up the interstate commerce clause in the last debate to talk of why it would be unconstitutional for States to do the ban. It was a route I had not thought about.


Is there a clip of that somewhere? I've never thought of how it would be unconstitutional for the states to ban it, and I'm curious as to what his answer for it is.

Edit: Nevermind. Dailypaul had a nice blog about it.


Edited by horsewithteeth11 - January 09 2012 at 13:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 09:31
At LewRockwell's political blog you can get all of Ron's responses edited together from the debate as well. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 17:59
Fleecing the Angry Whites


Since the days of Richard Nixon's "Southern strategy," the Republican Party has wooed angry whites with coded messages designed to play to racial prejudices - and that pattern has come back strong in Campaign 2012 as the GOP seeks to rid the White House of a black Democrat.

Usually, the dog whistle comes in appeals to "states' rights" and allusions to "welfare queens," but sometimes the implicit becomes explicit, as occurred when former Sen. Rick Santorum blurted out, "I don't want to make black people's lives better by giving them somebody else's money. I want to give them the opportunity to go out and earn the money."

This comment was directed to white Republicans in Iowa, some of whom nodded knowingly, receiving the message that President Barack Obama wanted to take their hard-earned money and give it to shiftless blacks. It's a message as old as time in America and it apparently helped boost Santorum into a virtual tie with GOP front-runner Mitt Romney.

However, Santorum quickly came to regret his caught-on-video frankness, realizing that many Americans find such blatant appeals to racial prejudice offensive. So, he proceeded to lie about what he actually said, claiming absurdly that he never said "black people" - that he "started to say a word" and then "sort of mumbled it and changed my thought."

The word, in Santorum's revisionist tale, had come out something like "blah," not "black." Yet why the government would be so determined to give "other people's money" to "blah people" was not explained. Perhaps so the "blah people" could buy snazzier wardrobes or snappier cars to make them less "blah."

Thus, Santorum hoped he could have it both ways. The white racist voters in Iowa and in other states could hear that the ex-Pennsylvania senator wasn't going to use government programs "to make black people's lives better," while non-racists were supposed to believe that he simply stammered out a word that sounded like "black," but was really "blah."

Not to be outdone, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich went beyond his usual disparaging of "food stamps" by adding a reference to the NAACP, in case some slow-witted whites didn't get the racially tinged "food stamps" message. After all, many struggling whites also rely on food-assistance programs, indeed a much higher number than blacks.

Evil Guv-mint

These crude appeals to racial bigotry - often framed as a well-meaning desire to help blacks by ending their "dependency" on government help - fits, too, into the broader right-wing narrative, that the federal government and its do-gooder programs are what's holding America back.

If only Washington got out of the way - along with its regulations, its taxes on the rich and its social safety net - then the entrepreneurial spirit of America would be revived and prosperity would spread from sea to shining sea, the right-wing message goes.

This message resonates with many Americans, especially whites, because it panders to their rose-colored personal mythologies that they and their parents climbed the economic ladder solely due to their hard work and grit. It's always an easy sell for politicians to flatter people by saying "you made it on your own."

Yet, for the vast majority of Americans, the reality is quite different. Especially after the Great Depression of the 1930s, the federal government took the lead in creating the social and economic framework that undergirded the nation's later success.

Even right-wing icon Dick Cheney has acknowledged that the New Deal lifted his family from economic hardship into the middle-class - and contributed to his own renowned personal confidence, which he ironically has put to use dismantling the New Deal. [See Consortiumnews.com's "Dick Cheney: Son of the New Deal."]

Government activism also wasn't a deviation from the Founders' "originalist" intent, as the Right would have you believe. Decisive action by a strong central government to protect the nation's interests was precisely what the drafters of the Constitution had in mind.

The driving goal of the Constitutional Convention in 1787 was to create a vibrant federal system that could address national problems and make the new country competitive with - and invulnerable to - the then-stronger nation-states of Europe.

Contrary to Tea Party ideology, the Constitution was not about embracing states' rights. Instead, the Constitution eradicated states' sovereignty which had existed under the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution asserted the sovereignty of "we the people of the United States" and the national Republic, with the states relegated to a secondary status.

To understand what happened, all you have to do is examine the Articles of Confederation, which governed the new country from 1777 to 1787, in comparison with the Constitution, or read even popular histories of the Constitutional Convention like Miracle at Philadelphia by Catherine Drinker Bowen.

Gen. George Washington despised the notion of "state sovereignty," which the states had cited during the Revolutionary War and afterwards as an excuse not to contribute promised funds to the Continental Army. "Thirteen sovereignties," Washington wrote, "pulling against each other, and all tugging at the foederal head, will soon bring ruin to the whole."

It is true that some Revolutionary War leaders, such as Virginia's Patrick Henry, ardently opposed the Constitution, but they did so because they saw it as an infringement on states' rights. In other words, both proponents and opponents recognized what the Constitution's drafters were doing: creating a strong central government.

The Constitution, which was ratified by the 13 states in 1788, represented the most dramatic shift of power from the states to the national government in U.S. history.

Lost Battles

Still, ratification of the Constitution did not stop proponents of states' rights from resisting federal authority, especially in the slave-owning South.

But the battles over what the Constitution intended - including President Andrew Jackson's facing down the Nullificationists in the 1830s, President Abraham Lincoln's defense of the Union in the Civil War, and the desegregation of the South in the 1950s and 1960s - were ultimately settled in favor of national sovereignty. Federal law prevailed over states' rights.

Having lost those historic fights, the Right latched onto a new strategy: to confuse the American people by rewriting the nation's founding history. The Right's influential politicians and pundits began claiming that the drafters of the Constitution were opposed to a strong federal government and were big advocates of states' rights.

For instance, last year on the campaign trail, Gov. Rick Perry, R-Texas, declared, "Our Founding Fathers never meant for Washington, D.C. to be the fount of all wisdom. As a matter of fact they were very much afraid of that because they'd just had this experience with this far-away government that had centralized thought process and planning and what have you, and then it was actually the reason that we fought the revolution in the 16th century was to get away from that kind of onerous crown if you will."

Besides being 200 years off on when the Revolutionary War was fought, Perry had the larger point wrong, too. The Founders - at least those who drafted the Constitution - saw the gravest danger to the new country coming from disunity. They viewed a vibrant central government as a way to protect the young Republic from renewed encroachments from Europe's monarchies, which otherwise could turn one state or one region against another.

The Tea Party's revisionist history of the Founding also has required a gross exaggeration of the Tenth Amendment's significance. It states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people."

While references to the Tenth Amendment draw cheers from today's Tea Party crowds, its wording must be compared to the Confederation's Article II, which says: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated."

In other words, the Constitution flipped the balance, stripping the states of their "sovereignty, freedom, and independence," while granting broad powers to the national government, including over interstate commerce. The Tenth Amendment was essentially a sop to the anti-federalists, added three years after the Constitution was ratified.

The New Deal

The Founders' "originalist" vision of a strong central government was vindicated in the 1930s when President Franklin Roosevelt led a national effort to recover from the Great Depression, which had been caused largely by lightly regulated "free-market economics."

Roosevelt's strategy, which involved large-scale development programs for modernizing the nation, such as the Tennessee Valley Authority providing electrification for much of the rural South, was carried forward by subsequent presidents, Republican as well as Democrat, through the post-World War II years.

President Dwight Eisenhower initiated the Interstate Highway project which improved the national transportation system; President John F. Kennedy launched the space program which achieved major technological breakthroughs; President Lyndon Johnson pushed medical programs and research that aided later pharmaceutical advances; and even the "failed" presidencies of the 1970s - Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter - focused the United States on environmental safeguards and energy self-sufficiency.

During this era - from the 1930s into the 1970s - millions of Americans were lifted into the middle-class and others grew rich from exploiting the innovations that government projects made possible.

All companies benefited from the U.S. transportation infrastructure; many piggybacked onto the technological breakthroughs in electronics; the drug industry exploited taxpayer-funded research in the development of new medicines. It turned out that government could create jobs, especially through alliances with the private sector.

Indeed, it is fair to say that the great American middle-class was largely the creation of the federal government – from the New Deal, which guaranteed labor rights and created Social Security, to the GI Bill which sent World War II veterans to college, to more recent developments such as the creation of the Internet and GPS devices.

It was not until Ronald Reagan's presidency in the 1980s that the political dynamic shifted. As Reagan declared that "government is the problem," the role of Washington in the lives of Americans was demonized. Many middle-class Americans forgot how much they and their families had benefited from actions of the federal government.

The myth of self-reliance proved seductive. The government was recast as an instrument for helping the lazy at the expense of the productive. Through subtle and not-so-subtle messaging, white Americans were told that the government was hurting them to help undeserving blacks and other minorities.

Government regulations were redefined as meaningless red tape that penalized important innovations, such as the exotic "financial instruments" that Wall Street was devising to "revolutionize" the banking industry. The thinking was that the government just had to get out of the way and let industry "self-regulate."

It followed, too, that Reagan's economic theories, such as "supply-side economics," would evolve into gospel on the Right. Since the beloved Reagan more than halved the top marginal tax rates on the rich - so they could invest in "supply-side" production and thus create more jobs - many conservatives embraced this notion with religious zeal.

Today, Gingrich boasts about his role in helping to formulate and enact "supply-side economics" - despite the fact that it has proved a crushing failure, as the American super-rich do little to create American jobs with their extra wealth. Indeed, U.S. corporations are sitting on trillions of dollars in capital because of a lack of consumer demand.

That lack of consumer demand has resulted from the decline in the American middle-class over the past few decades as Reaganomics has increasingly transformed U.S. society into one of extreme wealth and widespread want. In other words, the shrinking middle-class is proof that "supply-side" economics doesn't work, even as Republicans keep promoting it.

But the now-undeniable damage to the American middle-class - inflicted largely by right-wing ideology - creates a political problem for Republicans. Many voters may be hesitant to double-down on a bad bet.

So, it is perhaps not surprising that some of the current crop of GOP presidential candidates have turned again to more and more blatant appeals to racial prejudice. After all, racism is the primeval "wedge issue."

In this sour economic climate, more racist messaging - like Santorum's opposition to giving money to "blah people" and Gingrich's endless allusions to "food stamps" - can be expected as the Republican primary season rolls on.

Robert Parry
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 18:32
Mr. Parry needs to read up on the history of the civil rights movement and the respective histories of the Republican and Democratic parties before waxing political about the "broader right-wing narrative."

Recognizing that government aid has benefited you doesn't mean you have to give up being opposed to it (or being opposed to paying, say, $180 a month into it).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 18:58
He is right in what he said about Republican strategy since the late 60's...and those angry whites they wooed were racist, former Democrats!

Ironic that northern liberal democrats FDR and Adlai Stevenson did little to push civil rights while Midwesterner Truman and Southerner LBJ made much greater efforts to do so. The latter willing to throw away the "southern vote" even.

Anywho, almost as sad as racist people are those who make it an issue when it's not...or even worse make it an issue for their gain. To deny it's a problem is wrong (including in politics, remember the Republican Harold Ford commercial in 2006) but also wrong to push your agenda using it! To be frank I stopped reading after the being bent on removing a black Democrat from the White House.
Not saying it isn't still used subtly but pinning everything on racism??

Can't imagine why the wound never heals in this country!




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 19:12
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Mr. Parry needs to read up on the history of the civil rights movement and the respective histories of the Republican and Democratic parties before waxing political about the "broader right-wing narrative."

Recognizing that government aid has benefited you doesn't mean you have to give up being opposed to it (or being opposed to paying, say, $180 a month into it).

Mr. Parry has the history correct.  Nothing wrong with being opposed to government aid if it has benefited you but cognitive dissonance.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, Inductive Resonance:



Edited by Slartibartfast - January 10 2012 at 19:17
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 19:40
I didn't read the article, but Slart you're really missing some basic reasoning skills if you can't acknowledge that one can be against something that had benefited them.

If someone shoves a vitamin down my throat, I can be upset at them. I can complain about something like the USPS while still using it if I think that it could be provided privately for a lower cost without stealing funds from nonparticipating parties.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 19:47
Sheesh! I shove vitamins down your throat one time...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2012 at 19:49
Cognitive dissonance? Slarti you have some reading to do on the subject... it seems you have no idea what it means...

Oh, yes, The Flake has two primaries won now.
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