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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 07:39
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?


I can, I can! People have enormous faith that a government will pay back debts (hence, why the government could borrow money for free earlier this year). When a government takes out that faith and has people start making goods (guns, in this case), there are jobs to be had making the guns, and money from that task goes back into the economy.

Of course, it was probably at least as helpful that the government started employing a massive number of people itself.


What caused the depression?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 07:42
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.

Of course, it's certainly not a good thing to go to war to reboot your economy. I never said that, all I said was that war essentially ended the Great Depression. 


Actually it could have been ended sooner but FDR cut back on the stimulus spending.  WWII did reboot the economy in several ways.  1. People on the home front going to work making things that were frequently destroyed in the war so more things had to be made and they got paid for the work. 2. The destruction of workers.  Less workers chasing fewer jobs.  3. GI Bill: guys coming back from war were given a government ticket to upward mobility largely driving the build up of the middle class that made the '50's such a wonderful time economically for some. 


What if we diverted most of the resources of this country to burning stations. The government would call for and largely fund billions of these burning stations. You require people to show up with a certain number of goods each day, they drop them into the fire, and they get handed a large sum of money. Would this strategy be able to fix economic downturns? Why or why not?
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 11:27
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

 

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?

An economic downturn is exactly that, numbers on a tally sheet. It's a significant drop in production or spending in a country that can be caused by various things. Of course, a fast growing economy is not always a good thing. Mexico and China have some of the largest economies in the world, but both countries suffer massive poverty and income inequality. In the case of WWII, America's industries suddenly started working again to produce guns, ammunition, etc. for the war effort. So suddenly, there were millions of jobs available and people actually had money to buy things with. Obviously, this is a mobilized economy (AKA one built around war) and it is far from ideal or something you actually want. However, the unemployment dramatically dropped and spending dramatically rose causing a great increase in GDP meaning a huge upturn in the economy. 



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?

You mean adjusting for inflation correct? As in using "real" values instead of "nominal" ones? And yes that definitely matters, I'm not sure where you get the impression that I don't think it matters. 
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 23:40
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.


As much as I disagree with public works projects, I'm not going to compare them to something like the firebombing of Dresden. This is absurd. 

Both are acts of gov't, and if it can be said that WWII boosted the economy then it's possible that public works did too.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What if we diverted most of the resources of this country to burning stations. The government would call for and largely fund billions of these burning stations. You require people to show up with a certain number of goods each day, they drop them into the fire, and they get handed a large sum of money. Would this strategy be able to fix economic downturns? Why or why not?

Labor (hopefully more useful than burning sh*t) is exchanged for resources/buying power, what is wrong with the gov't creating opportunities for this that the market did not provide? There are enough resources to feed everyone in the world, they just need to be distributed properly instead of being hoarded by those bred into a system which instills in them a greed they could never satisfy.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 06:59
How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation

"Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961

Only rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896) was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy."



Edited by Slartibartfast - December 18 2011 at 07:01
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:13
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation

"Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961

Only rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896) was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy."



As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:28
Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:36
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.


Then perhaps you could stick to criticizing the philosophy of Orwell or Sinclair.  Wink
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:38
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.


Then perhaps you could stick to criticizing the philosophy of Orwell or Sinclair.  Wink



I freely admit to reading more critique of Rand that actually Rand's books. LOL  So I should just shut up and accept the damage her philosophy has done.  By the way, any Chomsky fans out there?
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:47
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What caused the depression?


Market bubble. Overleveraged firms. Remarkable hubris. Something a lot like we had prior to this recession. People stopped buying, market really choked. And in case you start in that direction (not saying you will), the math just doesn't work out on labor unions causing it.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


What if we diverted most of the resources of this country to burning stations. The government would call for and largely fund billions of these burning stations. You require people to show up with a certain number of goods each day, they drop them into the fire, and they get handed a large sum of money. Would this strategy be able to fix economic downturns? Why or why not?


This shotgun has far too many barrels, sir.
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:48
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:00
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:12
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.

Style trumps philosophy?
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:19
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.

Style trumps philosophy?


I agree with her ethical philosophy, but her writing is disagreeable.  LOL

Essentially, Rand spoke against "forced altruism," which is another way of saying "People should get to keep what they earn and not be forced to give it up to some nebulous 'greater good.'"  Rand was not anti-generosity (and therefore not "pro-greed").
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:



<font face="Arial" size="2">How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation"Ayn Rand’s
“philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size
of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a
curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and
egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961<p name="paragraph4" id="paragraph4">Only
rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring
or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896)
was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one
that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn
Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most
uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society
where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young
people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged
in bankruptcy."





Yes because the work of one writer can turn an entire nation in one direction.

America was born and built out of individualism and the desire to move forward (call it greed if you want). Rand's work didn't mold America into a "greedy nation" any more than Uncle Tom's Cabin freed the slaves by itself.

It's even worse when you recognize you haven't read one word by Rand. Admitedly, I haven't read the big novels. They're too big, and I have too many books right now. But at least in Anthem I don't see anything that matchs that stupid assesment. Now, as for 1984, it's a masterpiece. I'm not sure what you're saying about it.

To call individualism immoral is immoral for me. Greed? Well, maybe not the best character trait ever, but greed for money is as bad as the lust for power and equality, and at least it somewhat helps society advance.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:17
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?


You mean adjusting for inflation correct? As in using "real" values instead of "nominal" ones? And yes that definitely matters, I'm not sure where you get the impression that I don't think it matters. 



No I mean there's a difference to an economy between producing doo-dads  or producing gizmos.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - December 18 2011 at 10:19
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:18
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:


Both are acts of gov't, and if it can be said that WWII boosted the economy then it's possible that public works did too.


Yeahhhhh from a macroeconomic stand point. I was pointing out the gross immorality of one of the acts though.

Originally posted by KingCrimson776 KingCrimson776 wrote:


Labor (hopefully more useful than burning sh*t) is exchanged for resources/buying power, what is wrong with the gov't creating opportunities for this that the market did not provide? There are enough resources to feed everyone in the world, they just need to be distributed properly instead of being hoarded by those bred into a system which instills in them a greed they could never satisfy.


Thank you, but I would have preferred if you answered my question.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:22
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation

"Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961

Only rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896) was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy."



Let's sum up Rand's philosophy in a nut shell: No man is permitted to harm any other man. A man has no moral responsibility to anybody aside from himself.

Jesus Christ how abjectly immoral that is to suggest that a person must just go through the world while doing no harm others.

It's such a poor headline. The article should read like, "Moronic writer dabbles in hyperbole of a philosopher he has never read."
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:



Market bubble. Overleveraged firms. Remarkable hubris. Something a lot like we had prior to this recession. People stopped buying, market really choked. And in case you start in that direction (not saying you will), the math just doesn't work out on labor unions causing it.


I only ask because if we don't even agree on the cause, agreeing on the solution has little chance of success. You don't seem like you really want to get into it though. I don't blame unions for the depression in the slightest.

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:



This shotgun has far too many barrels, sir.


I'm unfamiliar with this expression.
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:41
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?


You mean adjusting for inflation correct? As in using "real" values instead of "nominal" ones? And yes that definitely matters, I'm not sure where you get the impression that I don't think it matters. 



No I mean there's a difference to an economy between producing doo-dads  or producing gizmos. 

I've already said that going to war is a pretty bad way to fix your economy despite the fact (when you have manufacturing) that it will do just that. Of course having an economy that only produces weapons for a global war is a bad thing. 
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