Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: No, it basically aims to eliminate that power that allows government to get in bed with wealthy elitists and ubercorporations for the exclusive benefit of a few. To speak for me personally, libertarianism also hopes to smash down ubercorporations as JJ puts it. Yes the methods it takes differ from those of others since the market failure which allows an exploitative corporation to succeed implies the aid of government regulations or funds somewhere in the equations. I have a particular disdain for pharmaceutical companies. I think they get rich by essentially exploiting the rest of us. Attacking them is pointless though. That's like trying to destroy a tree by eating the apples. You're just letting the tree grow taller and fertilizing the tree's seeds. The T wrote: What is really worrying and at times even repulsive is the implicit moral judgement that TheDoctor seems to make based on a person's wealth. One can read between the lines: the wealthy are always bad, sacks of corruption, decayed immoral criminals, abusers, BAD people; the poor are NEVER ever poor for their bad decisions or work ethic or anything, they are pure, perfect, all screwed up by the guy above. In his defense, it may appear that we claim that all the government does is ipso facto evil and all private sector good. If he believes this, I just wish he would justify it in some way. I certainly believe that everything done by government has some degree of evil in it, but I do not shy away from attacking private entities either. And as you know, so do I. Evil wealthy people can be even more evil because of government's help. I don't want a corporatist world any more than TheDoc's want it. But I want no proletarian dictatorship either. And the constant idea I get from The Doc's posts is class warfare. Of course I'm engaged in class warfare.  But the class warfare wasn't started by the middle class and the poor.  The class war was begun by the wealthy elite, by taking more and more from the lower classes to line their own pockets.  It's a war that has been fought time and time again.  I would hope that someday, greed and lust for power will not be mankind's most apparent trait.  Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back and regain control.  Then the cycle starts again.  I'm simply one of the masses who has had enough. Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?"

I know it is probably hard for you to fathom, but there was history prior to America, and there will continue to be history long after we're gone.  America is not the center of the universe.  Where did I once mention American history? 

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: No, it basically aims to eliminate that power that allows government to get in bed with wealthy elitists and ubercorporations for the exclusive benefit of a few. To speak for me personally, libertarianism also hopes to smash down ubercorporations as JJ puts it. Yes the methods it takes differ from those of others since the market failure which allows an exploitative corporation to succeed implies the aid of government regulations or funds somewhere in the equations. I have a particular disdain for pharmaceutical companies. I think they get rich by essentially exploiting the rest of us. Attacking them is pointless though. That's like trying to destroy a tree by eating the apples. You're just letting the tree grow taller and fertilizing the tree's seeds. The T wrote: What is really worrying and at times even repulsive is the implicit moral judgement that TheDoctor seems to make based on a person's wealth. One can read between the lines: the wealthy are always bad, sacks of corruption, decayed immoral criminals, abusers, BAD people; the poor are NEVER ever poor for their bad decisions or work ethic or anything, they are pure, perfect, all screwed up by the guy above. In his defense, it may appear that we claim that all the government does is ipso facto evil and all private sector good. If he believes this, I just wish he would justify it in some way. I certainly believe that everything done by government has some degree of evil in it, but I do not shy away from attacking private entities either. And as you know, so do I. Evil wealthy people can be even more evil because of government's help. I don't want a corporatist world any more than TheDoc's want it. But I want no proletarian dictatorship either. And the constant idea I get from The Doc's posts is class warfare. Of course I'm engaged in class warfare.  But the class warfare wasn't started by the middle class and the poor.  The class war was begun by the wealthy elite, by taking more and more from the lower classes to line their own pockets.  It's a war that has been fought time and time again.  I would hope that someday, greed and lust for power will not be mankind's most apparent trait.  Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back and regain control.  Then the cycle starts again.  I'm simply one of the masses who has had enough. Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?" I know it is probably hard for you to fathom, but there was history prior to America, and there will continue to be history long after we're gone.  America is not the center of the universe.  Where did I once mention American history?  I didn't say you mentioned American history.  But I am asking about it. You live in America.  You are a proponent of government fixing things.  So I am asking this: Please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control."  I answer your questions directly.  Please stop avoiding mine.

Sadly, I am unable to dispute that.  How I wish I could.  Sadly, I was born American instead of European, where at least greed has not completely become the religion of the countries there. 

The masses have never risen up to take direct control in America.  That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen if things keep on the way they're going.  Although, I have strong reservations about the collective intelligence of the American people and their ability to unite to oppose the corporate fascists. 

Don't waste your time with him, Epig. 

I hate people who think they can typify 300 million people based on their narrow experiences. 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: The "free" market is really anything but. We've seen the fatcats exploit the loopholes in the system and lack of restrictions on their greed even to the point of them buying out politicians (such that those kept dogs are the only ones who get enough visibility to win). It plainly doesn't work. Of course, since big business has the gov't in their pockets, how can you get that gov't to bring these sociopaths to justice?! I'm afraid we'll have to go the way of Egypt and be out in the streets, a total societal boycott, in order for anything to change. Maybe we can even force companies to convert to renewable sources of energy... and for the gov't to focus on science instead of war... but I hope for too much, doubtless. It would take people on a mass scale waking the f**k up and that looks pretty distant. Or instead of violent revolution, maybe we can educate people about what the free market is so that they don't make statements like this.

As far as I heard Egypt's protests were fairly tame with only minor incidents, which is probably inevitable. Of course, they were even worse off so it would take a while for America to get to that point.

Edited by King Crimson776 - December 14 2011 at 20:54

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Finnforest wrote: Max just declared "Paul for Prez" on his FB page.  You guys have won over the boss.  So what you're saying is, we can do whatever we want in this thread then?

Well, there's still Admin so keep your clothes on and keep the geef in the private room Slarti doesn't know about.

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: No, it basically aims to eliminate that power that allows government to get in bed with wealthy elitists and ubercorporations for the exclusive benefit of a few. To speak for me personally, libertarianism also hopes to smash down ubercorporations as JJ puts it. Yes the methods it takes differ from those of others since the market failure which allows an exploitative corporation to succeed implies the aid of government regulations or funds somewhere in the equations. I have a particular disdain for pharmaceutical companies. I think they get rich by essentially exploiting the rest of us. Attacking them is pointless though. That's like trying to destroy a tree by eating the apples. You're just letting the tree grow taller and fertilizing the tree's seeds. The T wrote: What is really worrying and at times even repulsive is the implicit moral judgement that TheDoctor seems to make based on a person's wealth. One can read between the lines: the wealthy are always bad, sacks of corruption, decayed immoral criminals, abusers, BAD people; the poor are NEVER ever poor for their bad decisions or work ethic or anything, they are pure, perfect, all screwed up by the guy above. In his defense, it may appear that we claim that all the government does is ipso facto evil and all private sector good. If he believes this, I just wish he would justify it in some way. I certainly believe that everything done by government has some degree of evil in it, but I do not shy away from attacking private entities either. And as you know, so do I. Evil wealthy people can be even more evil because of government's help. I don't want a corporatist world any more than TheDoc's want it. But I want no proletarian dictatorship either. And the constant idea I get from The Doc's posts is class warfare. Of course I'm engaged in class warfare.  But the class warfare wasn't started by the middle class and the poor.  The class war was begun by the wealthy elite, by taking more and more from the lower classes to line their own pockets.  It's a war that has been fought time and time again.  I would hope that someday, greed and lust for power will not be mankind's most apparent trait.  Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back and regain control.  Then the cycle starts again.  I'm simply one of the masses who has had enough. Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?" I know it is probably hard for you to fathom, but there was history prior to America, and there will continue to be history long after we're gone.  America is not the center of the universe.  Where did I once mention American history?  I didn't say you mentioned American history.  But I am asking about it. You live in America.  You are a proponent of government fixing things.  So I am asking this: Please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control."  I answer your questions directly.  Please stop avoiding mine. Sadly, I am unable to dispute that.  How I wish I could.  Sadly, I was born American instead of European, where at least greed has not completely become the religion of the countries there.  The masses have never risen up to take direct control in America.  That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen if things keep on the way they're going.  Although, I have strong reservations about the collective intelligence of the American people and their ability to unite to oppose the corporate fascists.  So, perhaps poor Americans are poor because they are stupider than their bosses? And yet again, you fail to address my question, and do so by bemoaning the fact that you weren't born in Europe (protip: Piss off there if you like). Here's my question for a third time: The Doctor wrote: Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back and regain control.  Then the cycle starts again.  I'm simply one of the masses who has had enough. Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?"

The Doctor in his previous post:  The masses have never risen up to take direct control in America. 

Had you actually bothered to read my post, instead of looking for every opportunity to attack, you would have seen that I directly answered your question.  So there it is in BOLD, so you can't miss it this time. 

As for pissing off, I could make the same suggestion to you.  However, I can tell you that the European governments don't really want us there.  Gee.  I wonder why.

However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums as I can tell that they are overrun with libertarians and evil conservatives, and before I end up telling certain people what I really think of them.  That's it.  I'm out.  You all can go, er, um, celebrate with yourselves now. 


Edited by The Doctor - December 14 2011 at 21:18

JJLehto wrote: Doc is one of those leftists that give us all a bad name, I was able to tell from post one. After some BotD I have to conclude, yes.   :(

Stop trying to suck up to the righties, so you'll look cool to your friends, JJ.