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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:35
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused

The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 



Edited by The T - November 29 2011 at 16:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:37
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused
As a socialist, what other theory of valuation would I use?  Wink
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused

The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 



It's a complex issue that really deserves a thorough treatment. That's not to insult the article which I haven't read, but my general opinion is that some length is needed to really properly talk about it.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:56
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused
As a socialist, what other theory of valuation would I use?  Wink


Well with that caveat you're only left with the irrational ones so I guess none Wink
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:57
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:



Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:



People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.
A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused

The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 

It's a complex issue that really deserves a thorough treatment. That's not to insult the article which I haven't read, but my general opinion is that some length is needed to really properly talk about it.
True. But a quick primer is better than empty phrases. Marx and his theory of value were an attempt to explain this, but one that was utterly wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 16:59
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:



Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:



People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.
A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused

The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 

It's a complex issue that really deserves a thorough treatment. That's not to insult the article which I haven't read, but my general opinion is that some length is needed to really properly talk about it.
True. But a quick primer is better than empty phrases. Marx and his theory of value were an attempt to explain this, but one that was utterly wrong.
I totally enjoyed thoroughly ignoring that article.  Tongue
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:02
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:




People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.
A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused


The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 


It's a complex issue that really deserves a thorough treatment. That's not to insult the article which I haven't read, but my general opinion is that some length is needed to really properly talk about it.
True. But a quick primer is better than empty phrases. Marx and his theory of value were an attempt to explain this, but one that was utterly wrong.


I totally enjoyed thoroughly ignoring that article.  Tongue
Yeah... I also used to be scared of articles with different views than mine... It's a good defense especially when one feels one's ideas are weak...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:08
I see it's finally gotten to libertarian thread #9001!

Guess it's for the best, time to officially say what we all knew from the start. OWS is dead.

My friend has now pulled a 180. After being oh so sure this was it, and occupying Harrisburg he now claims there "was never any ground to stand on" LOL what a mook!
Just glad he's done filling my FB page with anarchist punk songs and how the end of the system is coming, that was getting annoying.

Still admire the movement for what it was and its showing but like all they turned to idiocy and died miserably.
The police reaction was a bit horrifying but no surprise there either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:09
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:




People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.
A Socialists' theory of valuation Confused


The entire system of valuation is the whole crux of the problem with socialists. There was a great article on Mises the other day regarding that. If I find it I will post the link for TheDoctor to totally ignore it. 


It's a complex issue that really deserves a thorough treatment. That's not to insult the article which I haven't read, but my general opinion is that some length is needed to really properly talk about it.
True. But a quick primer is better than empty phrases. Marx and his theory of value were an attempt to explain this, but one that was utterly wrong.


I totally enjoyed thoroughly ignoring that article.  Tongue
Yeah... I also used to be scared of articles with different views than mine... It's a good defense especially when one feels one's ideas are weak...
Nah.  It just looks long, tedious and boring.  Did read his bullet points of what people should be free to do, and, um, no (at least to a lot of them).  Just FYI, I don't read a lot of socialist articles or books either. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:15
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


Because anybody who can scrub toilets can manage a billion-dollar company.  It really takes some skill and experience to scrub toilets.  I don't think I could ever manage it, myself.  Too much pressure, travel, and risk-taking.

Laborers don't produce on their own.  Someone has to invest in the equipment they use, maintain the plant and the machines, pay for the electricity and water, and deal with disasters.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:28
to be fair....how much first hand down and dirty experience do you guys have with the corporate world?
If you're blue collar you're not a dummie and from what I've seen with management (sometimes very high up) decision making and mindset, I will throw away your sarcasm and say a toilet a scrubber COULD manage a billion dollar company! Look at actions of recent years (let's say going back to Enron since that's as far back as I can actively remember) those CEOs really seem to a bunch of winners! LOL

Even at low levels...2 of my best friend worked moving coins around and various physical labor for Garda. All day long moving 50 pound bags, using machinery, no AC, stressful conditions, broken equipment. Right outta the late 19th century!
Well, one got promoted to a management position (who they used to mock) and started with "well....it's more mentally straining" as he can do nothing (he's admitted it to me) sitting around in an AC room and being a dick if he wants while the others labor.
Point being, the cliches are true. From all I've encountered and heard, it seems like in the business world you work hard to move on up, so you can work less and less and the higher up, quality seems to diminish.

I have had some good managers who even work Shocked and actually manage, as has my mother and father but this seems to be a few out of the bunch.



Edited by JJLehto - November 29 2011 at 17:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:31
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

to be fair....how much first hand down and dirty experience do you guys have with the corporate world?
If you're blue collar you're not a dummie and from what I've seen with management (sometimes very high up) decision making and mindset, I will throw away your sarcasm and say a toilet a scrubber COULD manage a billion dollar company! Look at actions of recent years (let's say going back to Enron since that's as far back as I can actively remember) those CEOs really seem to a bunch of winners! LOL


For every Enron you show me, I can show you a hundred Wal-Marts.

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Even at low levels...2 of my best friend worked moving coins around and various physical labor for Garda. All day long moving 50 pound bags, using machinery, no AC, stressful conditions, broken equipment. Right outta the late 19th century!
Well, one got promoted to a management position (who they used to mock) and started with "well....it's more mentally straining" as he can do nothing (he's admitted it to me) sitting around in an AC room and being a dick if he wants while the others labor.
Point being, the cliches are true. From all I've encountered and heard, it seems like in the business world you work hard to move on up, so you can work less and less and the higher up, quality seems to diminish.



For every hypocritical and unambitious friend you show me, I can show you a hundred consistent and ambitious people I don't know.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:35
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


Because anybody who can scrub toilets can manage a billion-dollar company.  It really takes some skill and experience to scrub toilets.  I don't think I could ever manage it, myself.  Too much pressure, travel, and risk-taking.

Laborers don't produce on their own.  Someone has to invest in the equipment they use, maintain the plant and the machines, pay for the electricity and water, and deal with disasters.

It's not so much that CEOs get paid more than their employees, it just that the ratio has really gotten obscene in my lifetime.  I work at a small  firm and my boss works really hard.  In fact I wish she didn't work so hard so I could have more to work on. LOL  475 times would be unsustainable. 

Laborers don't produce on their own, but neither do rich people.  My position is that it wouldn't hurt for people at the top of big companies to take a little less so their employees can do better and I know there are companies out there if the leadership has a strong moral compass, they make it so.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:38
Ah, but that's at our level Mr Brown!
Cmon most people are consistent and certainly ambitious, kind of like politics...it ruins you to make it up the ladder though!

Also how brilliant is Wal-Mart strategy? I dont mean this in a bad way: buy cheap from China, sell in bulk, for cheaper, than any other place here in the US.
Obviously successful but I'm pretty sure lowly lil you and me could figure that one out Rob. If by some crazy chance things happen in China move on to the next country, Vietnam is a growing one in the future.
We should start a company!

edit: I'm not even saying CEO's (of let's say of Wegmans for example) don't deserve more pay than everyone else and much more than a high school junior on cashier. The pay is outrageous though for what they do, but I'll let that go even. The stuff like golden parachutes and bonuses man! Don't you wish you could fail at your job Rob, step down but right before given yourself a $250K bonus?


Edited by JJLehto - November 29 2011 at 18:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:43
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, it would help if certain people read more rather than just spout fake numbers.




OK so it may not be 475 to 1 (even though it's been much higher) it's ONLY 185 to 1! LOL   at lowest

Damn, I wonder if it's really 11 to 1 in Japan. That's insane and kind of awesome Big smile
It'd make sense given the business model they ran for decades but they've gone for profit since the 90s


Edited by JJLehto - November 29 2011 at 17:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:51
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, it would help if certain people read more rather than just spout fake numbers.


"The Institute for Policy Studies’ ratios are higher than the Economic Policy Institute’s due to methodological differences."
Now 11 to 1 for a big company would seem not only fair but appropriate considering the range of skills people at the various levels of the company would be utilizing.


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 29 2011 at 17:53
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 17:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, it would help if certain people read more rather than just spout fake numbers.


"The Institute for Policy Studies’ ratios are higher than the Economic Policy Institute’s due to methodological differences."
Now 11 to 1 for a big company would seem not only fair but appropriate considering the range of skills people at the various levels of the company would be utilizing.


Yes, that would make me very happySmile 11 to 1 even seems pretty low. It doesn't need to be that low, but 250 to 1 (I'll go mid ground) is slightly outrageous.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 18:04
By the way I like Politifact, they seem to be a "just the facts Ma'am" kind of organization.

Let's do the rough math because the ratios are after all a number crunching exercise.   @ $10.00 per hour given a 40 hour work week, that's $16,685.00 vs. $183,543.00.  And I await for the attack of the Zippys on my admittedly oversimplified number crunching exercise.


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 29 2011 at 18:15
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2011 at 18:09
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

People are not paid based on the amount of work they do in the private sector either.  I would strongly dispute that a CEO does 475 times more work than a janitor, yet that is what he often makes.  I would say, if that were the case, the janitor should probably make more than the CEO.  And the people who actually produce products (the laborers) should be the highest paid in the company.


Because anybody who can scrub toilets can manage a billion-dollar company.  It really takes some skill and experience to scrub toilets.  I don't think I could ever manage it, myself.  Too much pressure, travel, and risk-taking.

Laborers don't produce on their own.  Someone has to invest in the equipment they use, maintain the plant and the machines, pay for the electricity and water, and deal with disasters.



Yeah and the CEOs do all that, don't they?  They invest all of their own money and so obviously they deserve to make truckfulls of money.  I have no problem with a person making an appropriate return on their investment, but...then we're talking about the stockholders, not the CEO (who may or may not be a stockholder).  Anyway, as Slarti pointed out, the company as a whole would not be able to function without laborers for it to take advantage of.  Some companies would do a lot better though without the exhorbitantly paid pencil-pushers.
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