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Stool Man View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Before Prog
    Posted: August 07 2011 at 05:21
Before Prog there were numerous types of music which combined to make Prog possible - Folk music, Jazz music, Blues, Classical, and so on. 
 
Let's discuss and appreciate the great innovators who made all this possible. 
 
 
I'd like to start by mentioning Stan Kenton, who was calling his music "progressive jazz" in the 1940s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 07:21
Although I acknowledge the precursory elements that were pivotal in Prog's development, you make it sound as though Prog merely cherry-picked existing ingredients into a new recipe. There were a lot of completely new ideas and technologies of Prog's own design that made such music of the early 70's sound so revolutionary.
The not insignificant matter of social change and contemporary mores cannot be dismissed either.

I agree that the jazz, classical, folk and RnB elements can be easily discerned in ELP, Crimson, Yes, Genesis et al but has there ever been a so-called genre of popular music where none of the pioneers sound even remotely like one another? (This has always puzzled me and makes me think that the aforementioned common elements are perhaps overstated as to how strongly they may have shaped the expected results?)

I'm not that familiar with Stan Kenton, but he was mentioned in an old PA thread as one of the most prescient jazz musicians of his generation.

For me two things made Prog possible: the sort of adventurous and daring musicians you have already cited PLUS a receptive audience willing to invest their time and money into this challenging and hitherto non-viable/unprofitable music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 08:49
Oh damn we have to go all the way back to the middle ages...

Let's restrict it to after 1950
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 15:45

Dave Brubeck

 

 
hard to believe that it lead to this
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 17:22
I think the usage or attempt to play jazzy time signatures in prog was the attraction for European prog musicians of the 70's. Whatever they decided to structure over top of that time signature was another story. Maybe an up tempo swing beat with a classical style of playing. They were surely mixing up the styles of music they had grown up with and creating a new style of Rock music.  It was termed Progressive Rock simply because the music had characteristics of standard Rock music ....for example distorted guitar, Hammond B3,....etc. That may not be the main reason but part of this observation seems very logical to me.  
I do remember in the early 70's kids in my age group were determined to perfect prog and took music lessons for Classical from a high ranking music teacher or they would study with an older guitarist who taught Jazz. You had to by all means learn Classical music to play prog and that is telling. You couldn't  expect to play Tarkus unless you had some sort of professional coaching.
 
There was something special and different about prog?....Yes that was the beauty of the plan. To observe these innovators....to study them. You have to remember that these prog artists from the early 70's were young and in their early 20's. chasing after ambition. Most of them had already studied Classical music for years and probably played Jazz at jam sessions through the night with each other. It's not a difficult vision to have. Technically the plan was to incorporate Classical , Jazz, and Folk mentality to create Progressive Rock. The rock side to it was clearly mastered years ago such as the usage of the pentatonic scale found in Blues. Prog musicians in the early 70's had already played standard Rock music for years. But this time they decided or whoever made that connection first......impossible to know?Shocked to take steps forward and add mixed musical elements which had not been done before in the style they projected to audiences.   I tend to believe that Emerson was groundbreaking with the Nice and he caused a fuss in London. All sorts of bands were forming to play or emulate the obvious approach of Keith Emerson. Rare Bird, Greenslade, Argent, Trace, Refugee, Beggars Opera, there is more. Nice stuff ...but sometimes it's too much like Keith.  Gong went in the jazz direction which is present on the Radio Invisible Gnome trilogy. Sometimes it was from 1 extreme to the next....other times French prog bands would smooth out these influences fitting the composition more directly for the purpose of sounding melodic. The dream they had was to write a musical score of about 20 minutes which would be lyrically a play. So now America's Rock audience were attending a Rock concert which was like a film.  I've heard Steve Howe do Jim Hall licks and passages in some of the strangest atmospheric pieces. I mean for a musician it's easy to spot this immediately......but he was taking the music to a different place and I think that was cool. Another example is how prog musicians would take a series of note passages in a Classical piece of music and reverse them. Many guitarist and keyboardists performed this practice. When the notes are played backwards it creates expansion tunnels for creation. Musicans may hear chord structures which are very original just by playing a Classical passage backwards. Many signature hooks in prog have also been created this way. Trying various experimental methods with what masters have created in the past.  It all happened so naturally .....but they were great musicians many of them.....and yes it was definitely a plan.


Edited by TODDLER - August 07 2011 at 17:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2011 at 04:54
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Although I acknowledge the precursory elements that were pivotal in Prog's development, you make it sound as though Prog merely cherry-picked existing ingredients into a new recipe. There were a lot of completely new ideas and technologies of Prog's own design that made such music of the early 70's sound so revolutionary.
The not insignificant matter of social change and contemporary mores cannot be dismissed either.

I agree that the jazz, classical, folk and RnB elements can be easily discerned in ELP, Crimson, Yes, Genesis et al but has there ever been a so-called genre of popular music where none of the pioneers sound even remotely like one another? (This has always puzzled me and makes me think that the aforementioned common elements are perhaps overstated as to how strongly they may have shaped the expected results?)

I'm not that familiar with Stan Kenton, but he was mentioned in an old PA thread as one of the most prescient jazz musicians of his generation.

For me two things made Prog possible: the sort of adventurous and daring musicians you have already cited PLUS a receptive audience willing to invest their time and money into this challenging and hitherto non-viable/unprofitable music.
 
I didn't wish to imply that Prog 'cherry-picked existing ingredients' - if that were the case then Prog could easily have been made just from Soul, Ska, Skiffle, Surf music, Sufi music, Slide guitar, and singer-songwriters.  I just meant that without (insert names here) leading the way years previously, Prog would not have been possible. 
 
Now please excuse me, I'm off to start a new soulskaskifflesurfsufislidesinger band LOL
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