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moshkito 
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 Posted: April 11 2011 at 14:59 |
 cstack3 wrote:
Benoit David 
I mean, the bloke has to be the most ORIGINAL vocalist in prog, right? |
I'm not sure that's fair to him ... it's the only voice he has and he is capable of using it ... but he lacks the spiritual and internal side to bring it across any better ... and to me, that is sad and brings YES down some. From the couple of things I have heard, he is a very good singer ... but I am not sure I would ever place him in the same category as Jon at all! ... EVER!
Just a thought.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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akaBona
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Posted: April 11 2011 at 16:44 |
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Jon Anderson, Derek Shulman, Richard Sinclair, Robert Wyatt, Peter Gabriel, Klaus Blasquiz, David Surkamp, Ian Anderson ...
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hobocamp
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Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:36 |
rogerthat wrote:
I endorse the suggestions of Haslam, Gildenlow and Walsh. |
Sounds like a law firm.
 Maybe Greg Lake back in the day. He sounds terrible lately.
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StrengthandWisdom
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Posted: April 11 2011 at 20:21 |
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Its not that i'm afraid that vocalists were exploring new territory. Its that singing went from needing to create resonance from your body to just getting up to a mic and shouting.
The voice is an instrument, and just because someone can talk and shout does not mean that ANYONE can sing, it certainly doesn't mean everyone should be considered a singer. The voice is an instrument that you learn with practice, just like any other instrument. Learning to sing requires an attunement and connection to your mind and body.
Getting up onto a stage and shouting in an open mic, isn't singing.
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Drew
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Posted: April 11 2011 at 20:34 |
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Has anyone mentioned the vocalist from Katatonia? He sings on a few Ayreon tracks...his name escapes me....
Jonas Renske I believe...
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cstack3
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Posted: April 11 2011 at 23:42 |
moshkito wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
Benoit David
I mean, the bloke has to be the most ORIGINAL vocalist in prog, right? |
I'm not sure that's fair to him ... it's the only voice he has and he is capable of using it ... but he lacks the spiritual and internal side to bring it across any better ... and to me, that is sad and brings YES down some. From the couple of things I have heard, he is a very good singer ... but I am not sure I would ever place him in the same category as Jon at all! ... EVER!
Just a thought. |
Yeah, probably not fair to B.D., but I'm still mighty rankled about how all that went down. I would have preferred for Yes to find a totally different vocalist, rather than someone who quite adroitly mimics Anderson.
However, their formula isn't to chart new territory, but rather to fill seats of folks anxious to hear the Yes classics & (they hope) some high-quality new material. It is upon this new material that BD's reputation in this business will be made or broken. Yes could have selected a young woman and opened up a whole legion of new fans. Or not.
If I drop the sarcasm, I'd say that the duet of Gabriel and Collins (singing backing vocals, one octave higher) is especially compelling to my ears. "Supper's Ready" intro for example....."Walking across the sitting room..." very nice and subtle, these days it would be done with octave doublers/auto tune etc.
Bassist Jeff Berlin did some very nice vocals on Bruford's "Gradually Going Tornado," and he is rarely mentioned for his vocals. I'm also partial to Colin Carter's voice in Flash, although that is something of an acquired taste I guess. Flash's bassist (now guitarist) Ray Bennett has a very pleasant voice also.
And, nobody mentioned Gordon Haskell....he of the magnificent scream in KC's "Cirkus" on the LP "Lizard"!!!
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giselle
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Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Points: 466
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 03:34 |
Mushroom Sword wrote:
Geoff Tate. No doubt, he has an amazing voice. Like Dellinger said above, Freddie Mercury (probably the best rock vocalist of all time) and Jon Anderson.
Cedric Bixler-Zavala of TMV can wail pretty well.
Edit: oops. Fixed it!
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Freddie the best of all time? A fine vocal sound and an excellent range, certainly an outstanding singer, but a horse for a course rather than fitting a category as sweeping as that. The man who took his place was a better singer (Paul Rogers) but significantly, Paul didn't fit with Queen anywhere near as well as Freddie did. Freddie was the best Rock vocalist of all time - for Queen. I thought 'Barcelona' was an outstanding performance for a Rock singer.
Jon Anderson? A tuneful vocalist, with a good range, but an uninteresting and somewhat undefined voice, almost like an ambience rather than a lead vocal. Excellent on harmonies.
Geoff tate, no comment.
Then again, we all have our opinions!
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SergiUriah
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 05:07 |
Of Course.
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Paravion
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 07:23 |
StrengthandWisdom wrote:
Glottal voice is using air from the lungs, its air being used from a very tensed throat, and this is in turn bad for the throat.
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BaldFriede wrote:
"Glottal" does not mean "incorrect" or "uncontrolled" at all; it just means using the glottis. |
Friede is right. Admittedly, I don't know much about singing techniques, but I am trained in phonetics.
You need air to sing, air comes from the lungs. On it's way out it has to pass through the glottis (whether your throat is tense or not is a different matter) so all instances of singing or speech, unless artificial, are glottal. "Glottal voice" is a tautological descriptor, and is thus not informative at all unless you need to distinguish between speech-synthesis voice and human voice.
Glottis is the space between the vocal folds, and it looks like this:
Edited by Paravion - April 12 2011 at 07:47
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 11:10 |
giselle wrote:
Mushroom Sword wrote:
Geoff Tate. No doubt, he has an amazing voice. Like Dellinger said above, Freddie Mercury (probably the best rock vocalist of all time) and Jon Anderson.
Cedric Bixler-Zavala of TMV can wail pretty well.
Edit: oops. Fixed it!
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Freddie the best of all time? A fine vocal sound and an excellent range, certainly an outstanding singer, but a horse for a course rather than fitting a category as sweeping as that. The man who took his place was a better singer (Paul Rogers) but significantly, Paul didn't fit with Queen anywhere near as well as Freddie did. Freddie was the best Rock vocalist of all time - for Queen. I thought 'Barcelona' was an outstanding performance for a Rock singer.
Jon Anderson? A tuneful vocalist, with a good range, but an uninteresting and somewhat undefined voice, almost like an ambience rather than a lead vocal. Excellent on harmonies.
Geoff tate, no comment.
Then again, we all have our opinions! |
Agreed on both counts. Freddie was a great singer but somewhat overrated.
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King Manuel
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Joined: October 16 2010
Location: South Africa
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 11:48 |
cstack3 wrote:
Benoit David
I mean, the bloke has to be the most ORIGINAL vocalist in prog, right? |
He has aexcellent, no doubt. Love his work with Mystery. If he is thowever he most original vocalist is another question.
Phideaux Xavier is another of my favourite vocalists who has a very pleasing voice.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 28039
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 15:06 |
Paravion wrote:
StrengthandWisdom wrote:
Glottal voice is using air from the lungs, its air being used from a very tensed throat, and this is in turn bad for the throat.
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BaldFriede wrote:
"Glottal" does not mean "incorrect" or "uncontrolled" at all; it just means using the glottis. |
Friede is right. Admittedly, I don't know much about singing techniques, but I am trained in phonetics.
You need air to sing, air comes from the lungs. On it's way out it has to pass through the glottis (whether your throat is tense or not is a different matter) so all instances of singing or speech, unless artificial, are glottal. "Glottal voice" is a tautological descriptor, and is thus not informative at all unless you need to distinguish between speech-synthesis voice and human voice.
Glottis is the space between the vocal folds, and it looks like this:
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That looks like some sort of H R Giger creation 
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 17513
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Posted: April 12 2011 at 18:57 |
StrengthandWisdom wrote:
Its not that i'm afraid that vocalists were exploring new territory. Its that singing went from needing to create resonance from your body to just getting up to a mic and shouting.
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Fair enough ... you could say that for almost 3/4's of all rock band singers ... it became about the fame and whatever else, and in some cases it works, because the band helps it sound better.
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The voice is an instrument, and just because someone can talk and shout does not mean that ANYONE can sing, it certainly doesn't mean everyone should be considered a singer. The voice is an instrument that you learn with practice, just like any other instrument. Learning to sing requires an attunement and connection to your mind and body.
...
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Carefull here when you say this ... because you are saying that just because the voice is an instrument, it is now "limited" and can not do different things ... like screaming, or other sound effects .... which instruments can do, if people want to have fun with them and try different things ... or you can spend 30 minutes watching "Fellini's Orchestra Rehearsal" ... which is more fun, anyway! ...
When you say learning to sing, all you are saying is ... using the 12 notes, and adjust to the chords and notes that he/she is supposed to sing ... and "sounds" can not be used .. has to be words, let's say ... and all of a sudden, this limitation hurts.
The other part is ... that we place these invisible limitations on these things. Go listen to many Eastern singers and what they do with their voices and how they meld it to the music (only word for it! ... we sing too much and don't meld or grok very well either!) ... and this is not something that we teach in western cultures ... and the ability to be better and more expressive, is sometimes more difficult.
There is a place in time, for everything ... and I don't know ... listen to Jim Morrison do some of his screams, and they are in tune and strong ... but again, we decided that we don't like that attitude, but we like other attitudes ... and then it becomes a serious discussion as to what is and isn't.
And then ... guess what rock music has been about for the past 50 years ... I don't have to tell you ... it has been about breaking the process and the definitions ... so different things in front of the microphone will be considered ... wether you or I like it or not ... and I think in the end, this is a very good thing ... we need more emotion in music, so we stop the very "classical" stupidity that states these kinds of passages in music mean this and that and this and that ... and rock music kinda told that off at first (progressive music) and then started using lyrics to help you make believe that A Star is Born is still true!
You must see the insanity in it all ... and how singing has been busted up ... and a new standard will be set in 50 years ... but to think that Peter Hammill is not a singer because he screams, or Roy Harper ... is really sad, because some of these people are at the forefront of that school of theater, film and the arts that were magnificent in their use of the "voice" in defining and coming across with their work ... which no one is denying its power, strength and beauty all wrapped up into one idea!
Times change ... but "western" singers are severely limited in their abilities and I like the idea and freedom that screaming or anything else ... can be done right and has a place in music ... opera and the "conventional" music simply was never able to find a place for true emotion ... it was always an "idea of that emotion" .... and most rock music, for me anyways ... was about telling those conventions and ideas to go to hell ... including singing ... so Roger Chapman is awesome for me, Peter is great, Roy is fabulous, Renate is insane and out of this world, Mani is the ultimate sound effect, no lyrics guru ... and even the early Greg Lake ... was pure poetry in motion and the music colored the words! ... instead of some lame lyrics telling me what I am supposed to be thinking! ... see the difference between the voice being an instrument and just another singer?
As an instrument yeah ... scream.
As a singer ... nahh ... go back tot he choir you came from ... ciao baby!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28039
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 01:34 |
Not sure if Demis Rousos has been mentioned but his performance on Aphrodites Child 'The Four Horsemen' is worth noting.
I mentioned Bruce Dickinson in my earlier post as one of the best 'technicially'. Then followed a prolonged discussion after being challenged by Snow Dog and well argued from my side by Roger That (thanks!). I would just clarify that I regard him as one of the best because to my ears he is pitch perfect. Heavy metal/Heavy rock singers usually grate on me big time but Bruce 'Air Raid Siren' Dickinson even though he supposedly shouts is still spot on.
btw Greg Lake tried the shouting thing on the Emerson,Lake and Powell album.That was horrible!
Edited by richardh - April 13 2011 at 01:35
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moshkito
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 14:12 |
rogerthat wrote:
Agreed on both counts. Freddie was a great singer but somewhat overrated.
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I just think that his band and his work deserve better attention ... they are not 15 minute cuts per se, but the variation and talent and the ability to make sure the music could color Freddie's emotions ... is something that most any band anywhere in the world would die to have ... and the last thing he recorded is enough to make anyone cry ... which is a wonderful anthrm for pretty much everything that the band and him, gave us ... !
But because there was a lot of hits, and we don't think that the stadium song is progressive because the masses are in it (  ) ... fits ... and it doesn't the mandatory keyboards to tell us to fly and dream ... in many ways, if you break down the restrictions, all of a sudden you have a band that is much more progressive than a good 75% of the bands listed in our top list ... a lot of which is not even original and just a copy of the same thing done before ... you can't really say that about Queen.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28039
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 15:06 |
moshkito wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Agreed on both counts. Freddie was a great singer but somewhat overrated.
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I just think that his band and his work deserve better attention ... they are not 15 minute cuts per se, but the variation and talent and the ability to make sure the music could color Freddie's emotions ... is something that most any band anywhere in the world would die to have ... and the last thing he recorded is enough to make anyone cry ... which is a wonderful anthrm for pretty much everything that the band and him, gave us ... !
But because there was a lot of hits, and we don't think that the stadium song is progressive because the masses are in it ( ) ... fits ... and it doesn't the mandatory keyboards to tell us to fly and dream ... in many ways, if you break down the restrictions, all of a sudden you have a band that is much more progressive than a good 75% of the bands listed in our top list ... a lot of which is not even original and just a copy of the same thing done before ... you can't really say that about Queen. |
I hadn't really thought about it that way but seems fair.
Queen were the first band I really liked. Freddie strutting across stage like he owned the world.His massive personality perhaps overtook everything else and made you forget what a brilliant vocalist he always was.
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cstack3
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 15:19 |
Upon reflection, I'd agree with a fellow vocalist of mine....Ian Gillian of Deep Purple had one of the most amazing voices back in the early 1970's, both on Purple LPs and "Jesus Christ Superstar."
Another belter was the late, great Ronnie James Dio!! Again, tangential to prog, but so is Freddie Mercury I suppose.
All three had rather remarkable range, vibrato, tone and control. I haven't seen Gillian in many years & don't know how well he's holding up.
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 20:46 |
moshkito wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Agreed on both counts. Freddie was a great singer but somewhat overrated.
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I just think that his band and his work deserve better attention ... they are not 15 minute cuts per se, but the variation and talent and the ability to make sure the music could color Freddie's emotions ... is something that most any band anywhere in the world would die to have ... and the last thing he recorded is enough to make anyone cry ... which is a wonderful anthrm for pretty much everything that the band and him, gave us ... !
But because there was a lot of hits, and we don't think that the stadium song is progressive because the masses are in it ( ) ... fits ... and it doesn't the mandatory keyboards to tell us to fly and dream ... in many ways, if you break down the restrictions, all of a sudden you have a band that is much more progressive than a good 75% of the bands listed in our top list ... a lot of which is not even original and just a copy of the same thing done before ... you can't really say that about Queen. |
It is unfair to conclude from a one line post that I call him overrated just because he sang for a band that EVENTUALLY became stadium rock (and used to be one of the most interesting hard rock bands around before the transformation) and not prog (and being that my favourites include Jeff Buckley and Stevie Wonder, I of all people don't attach so much importance to a band's being prog or not). So I refuse to even offer what reasons I may have had for saying so because this is pretty annoying. 
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Padraic
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 21:15 |
rogerthat wrote:
Agreed on both counts. Freddie was a great singer but somewhat overrated.
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He is not overrated in the slightest.
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StrengthandWisdom
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Joined: August 19 2009
Location: United States
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Posted: April 13 2011 at 23:02 |
moshkito wrote:
StrengthandWisdom wrote:
Its not that i'm afraid that vocalists were exploring new territory. Its that singing went from needing to create resonance from your body to just getting up to a mic and shouting.
...
|
Fair enough ... you could say that for almost 3/4's of all rock band singers ... it became about the fame and whatever else, and in some cases it works, because the band helps it sound better.
|
...
The voice is an instrument, and just because someone can talk and shout does not mean that ANYONE can sing, it certainly doesn't mean everyone should be considered a singer. The voice is an instrument that you learn with practice, just like any other instrument. Learning to sing requires an attunement and connection to your mind and body.
...
|
Carefull here when you say this ... because you are saying that just because the voice is an instrument, it is now "limited" and can not do different things ... like screaming, or other sound effects .... which instruments can do, if people want to have fun with them and try different things ... or you can spend 30 minutes watching "Fellini's Orchestra Rehearsal" ... which is more fun, anyway! ...
When you say learning to sing, all you are saying is ... using the 12 notes, and adjust to the chords and notes that he/she is supposed to sing ... and "sounds" can not be used .. has to be words, let's say ... and all of a sudden, this limitation hurts.
The other part is ... that we place these invisible limitations on these things. Go listen to many Eastern singers and what they do with their voices and how they meld it to the music (only word for it! ... we sing too much and don't meld or grok very well either!) ... and this is not something that we teach in western cultures ... and the ability to be better and more expressive, is sometimes more difficult.
There is a place in time, for everything ... and I don't know ... listen to Jim Morrison do some of his screams, and they are in tune and strong ... but again, we decided that we don't like that attitude, but we like other attitudes ... and then it becomes a serious discussion as to what is and isn't.
And then ... guess what rock music has been about for the past 50 years ... I don't have to tell you ... it has been about breaking the process and the definitions ... so different things in front of the microphone will be considered ... wether you or I like it or not ... and I think in the end, this is a very good thing ... we need more emotion in music, so we stop the very "classical" stupidity that states these kinds of passages in music mean this and that and this and that ... and rock music kinda told that off at first (progressive music) and then started using lyrics to help you make believe that A Star is Born is still true!
You must see the insanity in it all ... and how singing has been busted up ... and a new standard will be set in 50 years ... but to think that Peter Hammill is not a singer because he screams, or Roy Harper ... is really sad, because some of these people are at the forefront of that school of theater, film and the arts that were magnificent in their use of the "voice" in defining and coming across with their work ... which no one is denying its power, strength and beauty all wrapped up into one idea!
Times change ... but "western" singers are severely limited in their abilities and I like the idea and freedom that screaming or anything else ... can be done right and has a place in music ... opera and the "conventional" music simply was never able to find a place for true emotion ... it was always an "idea of that emotion" .... and most rock music, for me anyways ... was about telling those conventions and ideas to go to hell ... including singing ... so Roger Chapman is awesome for me, Peter is great, Roy is fabulous, Renate is insane and out of this world, Mani is the ultimate sound effect, no lyrics guru ... and even the early Greg Lake ... was pure poetry in motion and the music colored the words! ... instead of some lame lyrics telling me what I am supposed to be thinking! ... see the difference between the voice being an instrument and just another singer?
As an instrument yeah ... scream.
As a singer ... nahh ... go back tot he choir you came from ... ciao baby! |
Voice should not be the easiest instrument to play, guitar players in rock band cant just get up on stage without knowing the least bit about guitar method. So why is it okay for singers to get up on stage without knowing the least bit about vocal method? Thats my point, its completely burning the classical singing in its name. Should we just get rid of all classical music? Get rid of all classical/jazz gutiar methods and pick up guitar again from scratch and invent new scales and fingering, and form scales out of notes that don't sound pleasant together?
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Who are some of the best vocalists in prog?
