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Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:10
Snow Dog wrote:
He shouts. he shouts in tune. But he shouts.
No such thing as that, shouting in tune (which is not what he does, once again) is still singing, I am not going to call it anything else and also the claim that a singer who belts all the time cannot be technically the best is off base. Once again, what your opinion of Bruce is and what you choose to call him is not my concern, but the conclusions you have drawn are inaccurate.
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:12
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
He shouts. he shouts in tune. But he shouts.
No such thing as that, shouting in tune (which is not what he does, once again) is still singing, I am not going to call it anything else and also the claim that a singer who belts all the time cannot be technically the best is off base. Once again, what your opinion of Bruce is and what you choose to call him is not my concern, but the conclusions you have drawn are inaccurate.
And I insist that my description is wholly accurate.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:14
BaldFriede wrote:
Even singers WITH training use "glottal voice" (I presume you mean "head voice"); you can't reach certain high notes without using head voice. If you don't believe me read the wikipedia entry about vocal resonation:
Vocal training only teaches you how to switch between them effortlessly and to support the sung note with the diaphragm.
These people typically assume a high note produced with a good deal of resonance must have been produced from the chest but of course, that is not the case. Dio's highest notes on Neon Knights are definitely off the head, that they SOUND chesty doesn't mean they are.
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:18
Snow Dog wrote:
And I insist that my description is wholly accurate.
I am not talking about your description of Bruce, I am saying the conclusion that a screamer (which he's not) cannot be technically the best is wrong. Bruce is not technically the best in my opinion either but it's the larger inference that that style of singing by itself is not technically demanding that I object to.
Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:19
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
And I insist that my description is wholly accurate.
I am not talking about your description of Bruce, I am saying the conclusion that a screamer (which he's not) cannot be technically the best is wrong. Bruce is not technically the best in my opinion either but it's the larger inference that that style of singing by itself is not technically demanding that I object to.
i didn't say he was a screamer. And object all you wish., I'm not saying he has no technical ability.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:24
Snow Dog wrote:
I'm not saying he has no technical ability.
You asked how can a screamer be technically the best. Sorry, but adaptability has nothing to do with technical ability. Also, implied in your observation is the suggestion that Bruce cannot sing softly, which is false as well. What you're saying is a bit like asking how can Petrucci be one of the more technically accomplished rock guitarists if he plays at 11 so much? No, he is.
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:45
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
He shouts. he shouts in tune. But he shouts.
No such thing as that, shouting in tune (which is not what he does, once again) is still singing, I am not going to call it anything else and also the claim that a singer who belts all the time cannot be technically the best is off base. Once again, what your opinion of Bruce is and what you choose to call him is not my concern, but the conclusions you have drawn are inaccurate.
For once I have to agree with Snow Dog: Shouting IS singing. Take for example the opera singer Marlis Petersen, she is a trained opera singer, and she just has been voted singer of the year in Germany for the second time (first time in 2004). She grunts, she shouts, she croaks, whatever is necessary for the role; she definitely is not always singing beautifully. She received high international praise for the role of Violetta in Verdi's "La Traviata" BECAUSE of this kind of singing. Her comment on that role was: "I can't sing beautifully when I am supposed to suffer from tuberculosis, so I croak. if necessary". In December 2001 she filled in for Natalie Dessay in the role of Zerbinetta for a production of "Ariadne auf Naxos" at the Royal Opera House in London, with tremendous success. She recently had a tremendous success at the Metropolitan opera for her role of Ophélie in "Hamlet" by Ambroise Thomas. Marlis Petersen is proof that shouting IS singing.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 05:49
BaldFriede wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
He shouts. he shouts in tune. But he shouts.
No such thing as that, shouting in tune (which is not what he does, once again) is still singing, I am not going to call it anything else and also the claim that a singer who belts all the time cannot be technically the best is off base. Once again, what your opinion of Bruce is and what you choose to call him is not my concern, but the conclusions you have drawn are inaccurate.
For once I have to agree with Snow Dog: Shouting IS singing. Take for example the opera singer Marlis Petersen, she is a trained opera singer, and she just has been voted singer of the year in Germany for the second time (first time in 2004). She grunts, she shouts, she croaks, whatever is necessary for the role; she definitely is not always singing beautifully. She received high international praise for the role of Violetta in Verdi's "La Traviata" BECAUSE of this kind of singing. Her comment on that role was: "I can't sing beautifully when I am supposed to suffer from tuberculosis, so I croak. if necessary". In December 2001 she filled in for Natalie Dessay in the role of Zerbinetta for a production of "Ariadne auf Naxos" at the Royal Opera House in London, with tremendous success. She recently had a tremendous success at the Metropolitan opera for her role of Ophélie in "Hamlet" by Ambroise Thomas. Marlis Petersen is proof that shouting IS singing.
Er, you're missing the point. I simply said belting in a heavy metal song is not shouting. I am not even sure if you understood what I call shouting. Comparing metal shouting a la Araya to an opera singer is taking it out of context.
Joined: June 02 2005
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 07:03
I call ANY vocal perfomance accompanied by music"singing"; even sprechgesang is singing. Or what about throat singing, a technique I discovered by chance when I was a little kid and which I trained to perfection since (without having any idea it was called "throat singing" until I heard a radio feature about it)? Your vocal range is limited with this technique; on the other hand you can sing more than just one note with that technique. A famous example where "speaking" is used instead if singing is the wolf's glen scene from Carl Maria von Weber's opera "Der Freischütz". Here the whole scene in two parts:
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 08:28
BaldFriede wrote:
I call ANY vocal perfomance accompanied by vocal "singing";
Fine, but this is again not really in context with what the discussion was about. I was, clearly, making a discussion between shouting as a vocal technique and singing as it is normally understood. Bruce is still very much a singer, we should go by technique and not effect.
Joined: August 19 2009
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 14:11
Yes I'm looking for singers that actually hit notes, instead of screaming or shouting them. I think Neal Morse is a nice melodic emotional voice and it presents the feeling so well on Spock's Beard's 'Snow' album, which is one of my favorite prog albums.
Joined: August 19 2009
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 14:16
Glottal voice is using air from the lungs, its air being used from a very tensed throat, and this is in turn bad for the throat.
Singing lessons train you to have control over your breath and be in tune with your body. Jazz singers did this too, but they created methods that focused on the falsetto voice.
Joined: August 19 2009
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 14:22
Whats the difference between technicality and intensity with vocalists? You guys are giving lots of different descriptions.
Oh yeah, I like Chris Thompson. Also I'm surprised nobody's mentioned James LaBrie, while I dislike him, he has amazing intonation. Did James LaBrie study the classical vocal methods?
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 16:06
Greg Lake is the greatest IMO, not only has he a powerful and beatiful voice, it's also the way he stresses the words and his timing. I also think David Gilmour and Justin Hayward should get a mention. Lovely voices, mellow and soothing.
Joined: March 04 2011
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 20:01
I don't know if I've read Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull on these lists, but I think he's a great singer. Geddy Lee, Steve Wilson, Opeth's vocalist (however you spell his Swedish names...), Jon Anderson, and Justin Hayward are a few more of my favorite vocalists.
Follow me down to the valley below.
Moonlight is bleeding from out of your soul.
-Lazarus
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 09 2011 at 21:42
StrengthandWisdom wrote:
. Also I'm surprised nobody's mentioned James LaBrie, while I dislike him, he has amazing intonation. Did James LaBrie study the classical vocal methods?
He was mentioned and he's not all that great, imo. Listen to Daniel Gildenlow or Russell Allen (Symphony X), amazing singers. And though I have read that LaBrie worked under some vocal coaches, I don't know that he actually learnt classical singing.
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Snow Dog wrote:
These people typically assume a high note produced with a good deal of resonance must have been produced from the chest but of course, that is not the case. Dio's highest notes on Neon Knights are definitely off the head, that they SOUND chesty doesn't mean they are. 
