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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13097
Posted: February 18 2011 at 22:26
Hmmm...it could be said that Zappa and the Mothers indirectly influenced Fripp and Crimson. You see, the Mother's album Freak Out was acknowledged by The Beatles as an influence for Sgt. Peppers.
And now you know the rest of the story.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
Posted: February 18 2011 at 22:59
The Quiet One wrote:
^yeah, Sleeping in Traffic Part 2 is so different from contemporary Symph/Eclectic albums because it has that humour that is so Zappa-ish.
i also hear musical phrases that make me go 'oh that's so Zappa", particularly the quick little rhythmic parts where it sounds like the band is trying to fit as many notes in a bar of 4 as they can, something FZ did a bunch of times. I dont know how else to describe it without singing it.
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Posted: February 20 2011 at 05:55
I love them equaly, in two different ways. Frank Zappa was greater than Fripp (- with his vehicle, a brand name of King Crimson), if one is to compare whole catalogues by both acts, though. Also, Zappa was THE pionneer in progressive rock without a doubt.
PS Hey guys, dont forget Mike Bloomfield and THIS song by him, which was also an instant inspiration for many of that later British progrock movement (especialy for these bands who started as blues rock acts aswell) : amazing 13 minutes long instrumental "EAST/WEST", 1966
Joined: January 17 2011
Location: USA - English
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Posted: March 27 2011 at 20:40
That is exactly what I was saying! Freak Out influenced The Beatles, and The Nice, who in turn Influenced King Crimson, and Emerson went to ELP so the influence continued there. Two of the biggest Progressive rock bands ever. King Crimson's debut doing a ton of influence to all of them which is the point I am trying to make. I am not really Biased in anyway I just wanted to try and start a good conversation about this since I have never seen one before. I really love both bands A LOT. Zappa, and Fripp are probably the two GREATEST composers of their time in my opinion. Neither one of them to me has ever released anything bad. King Crimson's live material all of it is just amazing as is Zappa's. The Projekcts, Absent Lovers, Thrakattak, Exposure, Lizard, In The Court, Red, nothing wasted. Same with Zappa's Uncle Meat, Lumpy Gravy, Absolutely Free, Joe's Garage, 200 Motel's, Freak Out, Fillmore East, Jazz From Hell.
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
Posted: March 28 2011 at 11:27
I am no expert in Zappa's output. The way we classify now here in PA, Zappa is the first prog artist and released the first prog album in 1966.
The thing is, prog as we know it was founded in England and quite rapidly spread all over Europe. It took years before any band in the US dared to do something alike (I think Kansas was the first in 1973 but you may know better). The way I see it there are 3 milestones in the birth of prog :
1. Moody blues - Days of future passed : Not the first prog album and not even the best of it's time but probably the first prog album that had success and therefore heared by others (you can't be influencial when unheared).
2. ITCOTCK : For me, much weaker than what KC acheived quite soon after but again for it's time it was revolutionary (and again successful).
3. Pink Floyd - DSOTM : Maybe the album that brought prog to the masses. Again, personally I find it weacker than other PF's albums.
Zappa influenced more jazz artists at the time and though he is definitely progressive was not part of the prog movement. The way I see it Zappa is kind of a lonley wolf in his own private world.
Now, IMO none of these milestones are even close to prog peaks but their success aloud record companies to take risk with very strange music and therefore made the needed atmosphere to create much better music.
Joined: January 17 2011
Location: USA - English
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Posted: March 28 2011 at 12:37
I agree to a certain extent, but the fact that his orchestra type of music he did before a lot of his Jazz was very infleuntial to The Beatles, and The Nice. For american progressive Artists I think the first would be seen as Zappa, Captain Beefheart, Proto-Kaw was an older american progressive band featuring a lot of the members of Kansas who would later become Kansas, Mahavishnu Orchestra is also great. Some people see Miles Davis' Bitches Brew as a progressive album also. Zappa was not just a Jazz musician Lumpy Gravy is very much an orchestral type of music.
Utopia by Todd Lundgren was a later 1973 I think that was quite amazing from America.
Joined: January 17 2011
Location: USA - English
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Posted: March 28 2011 at 12:58
Also, how could I forgot the amazing Velvet Underground another older highly experimental band that never really seems to get the credit they deserved.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
Posted: March 28 2011 at 19:03
Hi,
This is a tough one all around ... since both were important in different ways.
One group helped bust the radio controls and bring more rock music to the forefront at a time when someone even said ... this garbage will never sell ... check out the 10 top worst business decisions of all time, and the Beatles and Rolling Stones are two of them! It could be said that pirate radio helped a lot, but if the music was not there, it would not have happened, and the fact is ... that the music WAS there.
The other, was doing some different things in Los Angeles, and the only people that gave them any credence was the Los Angeles Free Press ... until one day John Lennon said something and all of a sudden ... everyone knows Frank ... how Hollywood'ish that is, no?
In the end, they are both important ... one for busting radio open, and the other for helping improve the material that was being played.
I often think that Frank helped the psychedelic era more than the Beatles did, even if the Beatles were more show'y or artistic about it than Frank was, whose tastes were less around the word "art", and more ... let's do this ... which tends to dilute the value of the work a little bit, and ... this is the saddest thing of the Frank Zappa groups and Family trust ... they don't believe in the art of it all ... and I'm not sure that Frank is ever going to get his due as the composer and arranger that he was, that he deserves. He had, just as good, if not better work, where he did not play the guitar, but the only stuff we know is his guitar stuff!
No one is worst represented in 20th century music than Frank Zappa ... and it makes it harder that he was satirizing everyone else for their stuffiness overtly and overblown word'i'cisms that made everyone think that it was more important than otherwise! ... we must be stupid if it is not that word'y?
I would have said Beatles many years ago, but today, I would say Frank, because his music is lasting and still stands out fresh after all these years, and too much of the Beatles material just comes off as song that Billie Holiday sang ... or Bobbie Darin ... so to speak! And I certainly do not think that in the end, Michelle is a better spokesperson for our generation than 200 Motels is ... one is a nice song, thank you , so what ... but the other? Busted up video and film and eventually created processes that are still being used to day in film! One has much more importance in the physical dimention of the world of music in that it helped flesh out some new technologies and ideas ... Michelle was just another nice song that sold millions and made money!
Frank for me!
Edited by moshkito - March 28 2011 at 19:29
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
Posted: March 29 2011 at 06:05
davidk wrote:
I agree to a certain extent, but the fact that his orchestra type of music he did before a lot of his Jazz was very infleuntial to The Beatles, and The Nice. For american progressive Artists I think the first would be seen as Zappa, Captain Beefheart, Proto-Kaw was an older american progressive band featuring a lot of the members of Kansas who would later become Kansas, Mahavishnu Orchestra is also great. Some people see Miles Davis' Bitches Brew as a progressive album also. Zappa was not just a Jazz musician Lumpy Gravy is very much an orchestral type of music.
Utopia by Todd Lundgren was a later 1973 I think that was quite amazing from America.
I love Proto-Kaw's "Early recordings from Kansas" but it was not released at the time cause no record company in the US dared taking a risk with that kind of music (that was already quite big in Europe).
Velvet underground were interesting and progressive in their own way but not connected to the prog movement in Europe and was based mostly on minimalistic melody and strong lyrics (sanged awfully on purpose by Nico).
I like Zappa better, and I think he was more of an originator of early progressive rock in the 60's than King Crimson (although Robert Fripp became more directly involved in the 70's classic prog we know and love, and is sort of the Godfather of the genre since he has worked with so many diverse prog artists).
Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
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Points: 28772
Posted: April 01 2011 at 00:15
More influential? Inside and out of the realm of progressive rock, Zappa has influenced quite a ton of people...he didn't just stick to one genre or style, he probably did them all (though I haven't heard everything yet). Which I prefer? Again, Zappa...there are some Crimson albums I really enjoy (Red and Discipline are the two which come to mind most often), but there are even more Zappa albums I love. So far, almost as many albums as KC's official non-fan club discography.
Joined: January 17 2011
Location: USA - English
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Posted: April 05 2011 at 21:18
Definitely, and I personally believe to a certain extent Fripp, and King Crimson owes a lot to Zappa Discipline Period on because Adrian Belew has said on numerous occasions that he would not be the musician he is today without Zappa, and that Zappa gave him a Crash Course in music history.
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Points: 466
Posted: April 11 2011 at 09:30
I've already said I don't like 'versus' situations, but for me Zappa is a true original and maverick rather than a pioneer, certainy someone who set out to be different. And perhaps that's the problem, most of his stuff comes across as wonderfully-eccentric, similar in outlook to his great friend Captain Beefheart, defiantly provocative, non-mainstream, but having no other purpose than to be different. That to me isn't the same thing at all as a genre-defining moment of coalition of forces such as happened with the release of 'In the Court of the Crimson King'. I treasure Zappa, and it could be said he was inventive (though arguably not innovative), but he wasn't progressive before it's time, no. As has been said many times, no-one invented progressive rock, it was an amalgam of dispirate forces that found coherent shape for the first time in King Crimson, a band who had modelled themselves on others like 1-2-3 and Yes, but ended up with an accidental magic ingredient of their own.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17777
Posted: April 14 2011 at 20:46
npjnpj wrote:
Although I'm a big Zappa fan and although I agree that he was creating progressive-type music before KC, I think that without ItCotCK not many people would be listening to it.
If you want, ItCotCK was the boost that enabled everyone including Zappa to shed their anonymity.
Would you mind if I re-phrased this?
Without ITCOTKC ... a lot of the work that Frank Zappa would NOT have been validated for its value, I don't think ... and it took more bands taking it to the experiment and doing completely different things to help ... make things like Frank Zappa more viable to audiences ... he was very tough to listen to ... and even I did not get into his work until the Chunga's Revenge album and even then ... it was because of Babe Ruth's version of King King! However, a lot more of this experimentation was all over Europe than the Anglo-American minded commercialism in music.
Frank Zappa was a very tough acquired taste because it was an incredible mix of everything and the kitchen sink, and what not ... where as even the work by King Crimson, is much more "conventional" and "compositional" than what Frank was doing ... and consequently ... much easier to listen to!
KC's album is one of many that helped show that ... rock musicians were capable of excellent music as well ... and this happens to have been the "group" that we have come to call "progressive" of which Frank Zappa is an early member and should be an honored member ... but too many of us are to hung up on his parodies and social satires that sometimes make our knees ... not like it! KC's material, by comparison? ... not even worth discussing! Invisible intelectuality -- disguised as "music".
But satire and sometimes stuff that makes fun of the seriousness of some things out there ... including the PA board here by some folks like me ... is not something that most people like, and have a tendency to think that people are insulting them ... we're not insulting anyone ... we're simply asking that you take a look at a couple of different things and look left once in a while instead of right all the time ... very simple! You're such a good Draenei!
Edited by moshkito - April 14 2011 at 20:53
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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