Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

We have $4.25 to our name until Tuesday (and speaking of toilet paper... ), yet I consider us to be very fortunate.  We all are warm and fed, generally healthy, good looking and we have a wonderful family.

Hard times puts things into perspective- it makes you thankful for a lot of things you don't even think about, and so I'm really thankful for hard times.

AllP0werToSlaves wrote: Just out of curiosity for the sake of context, what do you consider privileged? Just anyone who isn't born into poverty? I have very little money at the moment and have been out of work for sometime now (lay off) and I must say, I enjoy having free time more than money. I am an active musician and I would love to earn enough to live off by not contributing to the sh*t show, but it is rather tricky as you all know. I'm actually more responsible than most people my age with what little money I do come into, so it balances out rather well. I would much rather help others who actually need HONEST help with things than be tethered to an hourly job which controls my entire schedule. THAT is the absolute epitome of self slavery to me, regardless of what you can do with the money. I've always been the type to view submission to employment (of a job you'd rather not do, this doesn't include GOOD jobs that actually treat you like a human and not a number on a screen) as worse than being broke and losing all your stuff. If you have to be on guard 24/7 just to hang onto sh*t (which you spend most of your time away from to PAY FOR AT WORK), it's self defeating. It's basically a bad business decision; would any business open just to barely make a little more than their overhead? It would be pointless and a waste of time! Barter your freedom for security; it's the only way! Be thankful for your freedom, people died so you could be here right now! I'm sure the founding fathers are rolling in their f**king graves!

If you don't have to worry about when your next meal will be, where you will sleep at night, if you'll die from an easily curable illness, or if a bomb will drop on your house in the middle of the night, then I consider you privileged.

I'm very grateful for my relative freedom, my jobs, everything that I have. For some of it I worked and continue to work incredibly hard. Many things were made possible just as an accident of birth, and for that I am grateful.

AllP0werToSlaves wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: AllP0werToSlaves wrote: Just out of curiosity for the sake of context, what do you consider privileged? Just anyone who isn't born into poverty? I have very little money at the moment and have been out of work for sometime now (lay off) and I must say, I enjoy having free time more than money. I am an active musician and I would love to earn enough to live off by not contributing to the sh*t show, but it is rather tricky as you all know. I'm actually more responsible than most people my age with what little money I do come into, so it balances out rather well. I would much rather help others who actually need HONEST help with things than be tethered to an hourly job which controls my entire schedule. THAT is the absolute epitome of self slavery to me, regardless of what you can do with the money. I've always been the type to view submission to employment (of a job you'd rather not do, this doesn't include GOOD jobs that actually treat you like a human and not a number on a screen) as worse than being broke and losing all your stuff. If you have to be on guard 24/7 just to hang onto sh*t (which you spend most of your time away from to PAY FOR AT WORK), it's self defeating. It's basically a bad business decision; would any business open just to barely make a little more than their overhead? It would be pointless and a waste of time! Barter your freedom for security; it's the only way! Be thankful for your freedom, people died so you could be here right now! I'm sure the founding fathers are rolling in their f**king graves! If you don't have to worry about when your next meal will be, where you will sleep at night, if you'll die from an easily curable illness, or if a bomb will drop on your house in the middle of the night, then I consider you privileged. I'm very grateful for my relative freedom, my jobs, everything that I have. For some of it I worked and continue to work incredibly hard. Many things were made possible just as an accident of birth, and for that I am grateful. Statements like this are what I wish more would realize. It infuriates me to no end when I overhear people while getting coffee saying things like "HOW AM I GOING TO AFFORD BOTH CARS? I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO OPEN THE POOL THIS SUMMER!". Live within your means and you will see there is more to life than chasing materialism. Those who transcend this ideology are truly free! Bravo to everyone in this thread for being mature in discussion and not getting caught up in the details (which is what politics, much like religion, owes its survival to). Obscuring the truth is a tactic that has been used for millennia to keep people in the dark about what's really going on on our planet. Forums such as this that embrace freedom of speech are the only shred left of a sane society; and I am thankful we all gather here to share our ideas

I agree with you except that I don't think there's anything wrong with materialism.

"Consumerism is economically manifested in the chronic purchasing of new goods and services, with little attention to their true need, durability, product origin or the environmental consequences of manufacture and disposal. Consumerism is driven by huge sums spent on advertising designed to create both a desire to follow trends, and the resultant personal self-reward system based on acquisition. Materialism is one of the end results of consumerism.

Consumerism interferes with the workings of society by replacing the normal common-sense desire for an adequate supply of life's necessities, community life, a stable family and healthy relationships with an artificial ongoing and insatiable quest for things and the money to buy them with little regard for the true utility of what is bought. An intended consequence of this, promoted by those who profit from consumerism, is to accelerate the discarding of the old, either because of lack of durability or a change in fashion."

This pretty much sums up my views lol.

The more libertarian I've become the more I've noticed that I side with anti-war pro- [huge provide everything for everyone completely control the economy] people more than with pro-war pro-[free market] people. Does anyone else feel this way?

I definitely approached libertarianism initially due to my belief in the free market and letting people live their lives, but now that I'm here I see the most pertinent goal of libertarianism to eliminate the war apparatus. Although I find no moral value in redistribution of wealth and social-engineering via market controls, I find it decidedly immoral to worry about correcting these things before seeking an end to ongoing military activities. I think this is the more feasible approach also, but I must also advocate it for the sake of a clean conscience.

Padraic wrote: No, I'm Republican Democrat either a Republican or Democrat.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkNEuJYNokY_v6FDaHDfT4t0fNdF?slug=yhoo-ept_sports_nfl_experts-319475

Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: ^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.   I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress. I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one". I'm heading down the lunacy road...   Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary. When "individualism" became a bad word, and somehow got put in the dictionary as a synonym of "selfishness", the battle for the moral ground got kinda lost. Media uses this all the time. Damn, I used it a lot.  The thing is, the libertarian society is the best for BOTH the selfish and the generous one. For the selfish, it allows him to be that way. For the generous, it allows him to be that way, free of forced payments that go wasted, he can devote his resources to help. The socialist society makes the generous one get lazy because he thinks "he's already helping with his taxes", and the selfish... well, he just joins the Party.   You're preaching to the choir here.  Not to be a libertarian conspiracy nut but do you really think it's just a coincidence that these words have gradually changed in meaning? The libertarian/individualist/freedom lover/hater of state aggression is at a loss of words to even properly express his opinion. Anarchy has become equivalent to chaos. Individualism equivalent to selfishness. Welfare equivalent to charity. Anti-war equivalent to pro-terrorist. You're at a disadvantage from the beginning because of the way words have been twisted. I think I've posted this over 100 times here but, there is absolutely nothing moral about commanding that money be taken from some people and given to others. You can claim no moral high ground. It's an approach of the lazy who want to feel good without sacrifice.  The question is always asked: How will the poor be helped in a free society? The question is never asked: How are the poor helped in our society? People don't realize that libertarianism tends to be much less selfish in nature than it is empathetic in nature. I went on a tirade before about how I'm not a libertarian because of my personal experience. I belong to a privileged class in the world. I'm a libertarian because of all the faceless victims of governments throughout the history of mankind.  I'm not privileged. I'm not dirt poor either. I'm becoming a libertarian because it makes sense, because it's moral, realistic, desirable, and yes, because the more government we have, the more chances we have of becoming little pieces in a chess board.  The internet was made for libertarians. If all the other ways of communication are in the hands of either governments or their friends, the internet can give the people the voice to start taking those stupid twisting of words down.  In the grand scheme of things you're probably privileged Teo. I don't mean to speak of your life because I don't know you, but the very fact that you're in America with the free time to post on this board shows  that you're one of the privileged class of the world. I didn't grow up with much compared to most people in this country, but in the eyes of most of the world I was certainly privileged.

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To answer the headline: No

AllP0werToSlaves wrote: I completely agree with you. My car, shelter, instruments and healthy whole foods are really all I need. I don't buy into escapism via materialism and entertainment. I enjoy studying the secrets of life and the universe, discovering myself and cultivating my spirit. Reaching my full potential as a human being is infinitely more important to me than having a 70" LCD flat screen TV hanging on my wall.