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Points: 65882 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 23:01
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary.


the Oppenheimer Syndrome
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:59
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I am just stunned that between the five or six libertarians on this site we manage to actually convert someone. That has seriously never happened to me before. I guess strength in numbers, huh?

Kind of makes you optimistic doesn't it?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:58
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  

Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary.

When "individualism" became a bad word, and somehow got put in the dictionary as a synonym of "selfishness", the battle for the moral ground got kinda lost. Media uses this all the time. Damn, I used it a lot. 

The thing is, the libertarian society is the best for BOTH the selfish and the generous one. For the selfish, it allows him to be that way. For the generous, it allows him to be that way, free of forced payments that go wasted, he can devote his resources to help. The socialist society makes the generous one get lazy because he thinks "he's already helping with his taxes", and the selfish... well, he just joins the Party.  

You're preaching to the choir here. 

Not to be a libertarian conspiracy nut but do you really think it's just a coincidence that these words have gradually changed in meaning? The libertarian/individualist/freedom lover/hater of state aggression is at a loss of words to even properly express his opinion. Anarchy has become equivalent to chaos. Individualism equivalent to selfishness. Welfare equivalent to charity. Anti-war equivalent to pro-terrorist. You're at a disadvantage from the beginning because of the way words have been twisted.

I think I've posted this over 100 times here but, there is absolutely nothing moral about commanding that money be taken from some people and given to others. You can claim no moral high ground. It's an approach of the lazy who want to feel good without sacrifice. 

The question is always asked: How will the poor be helped in a free society? The question is never asked: How are the poor helped in our society? People don't realize that libertarianism tends to be much less selfish in nature than it is empathetic in nature. I went on a tirade before about how I'm not a libertarian because of my personal experience. I belong to a privileged class in the world. I'm a libertarian because of all the faceless victims of governments throughout the history of mankind. 




Edited by Equality 7-2521 - February 09 2011 at 22:58
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:51
I am just stunned that between the five or six libertarians on this site we manage to actually convert someone. That has seriously never happened to me before. I guess strength in numbers, huh?
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:50
Teo freaking pwns this thread.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:49
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  

Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary.

When "individualism" became a bad word, and somehow got put in the dictionary as a synonym of "selfishness", the battle for the moral ground got kinda lost. Media uses this all the time. Damn, I used it a lot. 

The thing is, the libertarian society is the best for BOTH the selfish and the generous one. For the selfish, it allows him to be that way. For the generous, it allows him to be that way, free of forced payments that go wasted, he can devote his resources to help. The socialist society makes the generous one get lazy because he thinks "he's already helping with his taxes", and the selfish... well, he just joins the Party.  


Edited by The T - February 09 2011 at 22:49
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:45
Warning Disturbing Content
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:45
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.

As you can see, this is a politics-debate thread with an emphasis in discussing the role of government and its contrast with freedom. And as you can see, lately I've been hijacking it LOL
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:44
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  

Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:43
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.

This is what is called a non-argument directing following the very real argument made by llama. 

Class please notice the expert use of the false dichotomy. 

That very decent website about anarcho-capitalism has a full page devoted to fallacies of every kind. Quite interesting. I've fallen for pretty much all of them at some point LOL
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:42
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:35
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.
Not so different of what we're doing right now... minus the "eliminate all taxes" part... 
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:54
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.
 
You know, your "magical fairies" are government officials.  You believe in them like they can take care of everything yet their ability to do so is nonexistant.  People do not need real rulers or fictional beings to live.


Time always wins.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.

This is what is called a non-argument directing following the very real argument made by llama. 

Class please notice the expert use of the false dichotomy. 


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - February 09 2011 at 21:34
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:25
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.

No problem; though we can get a bit silly/off-topic here at times, we do try to stick to substantive discussion.  The linked thread is really the only "chat" thread permitted.
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:21
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.
WON'T YOU COME INTO MY ROOM

I WANNA SHOW YOU ALL MY WARES
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:17
If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.
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EDIT: Wrong thread. Woops.


Edited by ThaNuke - February 09 2011 at 21:22
WON'T YOU COME INTO MY ROOM

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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 20:27
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

I'm not sure as to whether this thread is about the actual ideology or random discussion.

A little of both.
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I'm not sure as to whether this thread is about the actual ideology or random discussion.
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