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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 13:52
This is quite kindergarten economics 101 but: any tax in a competitive market brings prices for sellers down (who will then offer less product), prices for buyers up (who will then demand less product) and quantities moved around altogether down. Nobody benefits with taxes in a market but third persons not in the market. Am I wrong in seeing something incorrect here or is this over-simplifying something than has much more implications? 
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 14:12
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

This is quite kindergarten economics 101 but: any tax in a competitive market brings prices for sellers down (who will then offer less product), prices for buyers up (who will then demand less product) and quantities moved around altogether down. Nobody benefits with taxes in a market but third persons not in the market. Am I wrong in seeing something incorrect here or is this over-simplifying something than has much more implications? 


Not really. It actually doesn't even matter if the tax is on the consumer or on the producer. It has the same effect.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 14:14
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 19:00
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

This is quite kindergarten economics 101 but: any tax in a competitive market brings prices for sellers down (who will then offer less product), prices for buyers up (who will then demand less product) and quantities moved around altogether down. Nobody benefits with taxes in a market but third persons not in the market. Am I wrong in seeing something incorrect here or is this over-simplifying something than has much more implications? 


You're quite right. There's always a deadweight welfare loss that is an inefficiency created by taxes. You stated very well that fewer goods will be sold and so everybody is a little worse off. The purpose of taxes is o raise revenue for governments so they can do things we don't want them to, or to punish us for consuming things they don't want us to consume.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 20:14
I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 20:17
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.

As long as the fairies are union, right?
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 20:26
I'm not sure as to whether this thread is about the actual ideology or random discussion.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 20:27
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

I'm not sure as to whether this thread is about the actual ideology or random discussion.

A little of both.
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:14
EDIT: Wrong thread. Woops.


Edited by ThaNuke - February 09 2011 at 21:22
WON'T YOU COME INTO MY ROOM

I WANNA SHOW YOU ALL MY WARES
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:17
If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:21
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.
WON'T YOU COME INTO MY ROOM

I WANNA SHOW YOU ALL MY WARES
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:25
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.

No problem; though we can get a bit silly/off-topic here at times, we do try to stick to substantive discussion.  The linked thread is really the only "chat" thread permitted.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.

This is what is called a non-argument directing following the very real argument made by llama. 

Class please notice the expert use of the false dichotomy. 


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - February 09 2011 at 21:34
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 21:54
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.
 
You know, your "magical fairies" are government officials.  You believe in them like they can take care of everything yet their ability to do so is nonexistant.  People do not need real rulers or fictional beings to live.


Time always wins.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:35
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.
Not so different of what we're doing right now... minus the "eliminate all taxes" part... 
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:42
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:43
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I think the best thing to do is just to eliminate all taxes and let magical fairies take care of everything.

This is what is called a non-argument directing following the very real argument made by llama. 

Class please notice the expert use of the false dichotomy. 

That very decent website about anarcho-capitalism has a full page devoted to fallacies of every kind. Quite interesting. I've fallen for pretty much all of them at some point LOL
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:44
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just by reading, thinking, analyzing, introspectionizing (r) and discussing with people could I liberate myself from the stronghold of the blanket idea of the Mommy State. Only through that will I discover and see if I can really view full privatization of everything as doable in reality (including future, evolutionary reality), though I already agree it is desirable.  


I was just joking of course. If you read those articles, you should at least become interested in seriously considering the idea. After that you may or may not deduce that it is possible. The articles should clear up some conceptual stuff and give some nice justifications. The Rothbard article was key to my progress.

I'm pretty sure I'll end right there. I have had dreams of a society like that. Somehow I got very confused by my own ridiculous fears in the process and ended up supporting a totally free society, in which freedom meant "leaving your decisions in somebody else's hands, who would feed you, cure you, give you a roof, and defend you". I don't know where the hell did I miss the part where such a benevolent being that I imagined actually would need to have total control over me and my actions and my goals and my means to achieve them. Well, I guess is every hard socialist's dilemma: for the world to be just like one wants it to be, the one has to become THE One. And as this is impossible, the only way is to support a "WE" that actually eliminates any other different-thinking "one".

I'm heading down the lunacy road...  

Most statists are people with the best intentions in mind. This is particularly what makes it so dangerous. The moral certitude which comes with good intentions makes the actions particularly scary.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:45
Originally posted by ThaNuke ThaNuke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

If you really want to place to hang out, here is where all the cool kids hang out.


I'm guessing that is a thread for just about any sort of discussion? I kinda thought this one was with the way you worded your former post. Thanks for redirecting me to a more appropriate thread, though.

As you can see, this is a politics-debate thread with an emphasis in discussing the role of government and its contrast with freedom. And as you can see, lately I've been hijacking it LOL
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2011 at 22:45
Warning Disturbing Content
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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